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THE Stephen Hawking Thread (merged)

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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby Chicken_Little » Fri 16 Jun 2006, 20:19:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')5,000 frozen human embryos. 100 artificial wombs; a few dozen caretaker robots; or maybe a couple real humans if one could figure out how to do the sci-fi "stasis" thing.



Hey! Saying frozen embryos aren't real humans can get you shot in Georgia!
Exterminate all the brutes!
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 16 Jun 2006, 20:32:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')5,000 frozen human embryos. 100 artificial wombs; a few dozen caretaker robots; or maybe a couple real humans if one could figure out how to do the sci-fi "stasis" thing.


Hey! Saying frozen embryos aren't real humans can get you shot in Georgia!


Umm, I suppose that isn't particularly clear, and some might misread. The couple real humans are as in opposition to the caretaker robots, which they could supplement or manage. The embryos, in my opinion, are real humans.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 01:49:47

I'm surprised Hawking would say something like this. It's so clearly absurd to think we can accomplish anything in deep space. Probes in the Solar System, sure, but that's about the limits. Here's what I think these ideas are really about: there is something sad and confining being here in this little slice of time on a little planet lost in the vastness of time and space. We want to know what the Big Picture is, what's going to happen to our distant descendents, what Human Destiny is, but we can't know any of it. So we invent mythologies such as Star Trek and science fiction to placate the nagging fact of our ignorance.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 02:21:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')You are missing two points:
(ignorant speculative bullshit deleted)


You're missing more than a few marbles, troll.


There are no marbles in green bulshit.
It is only silly religion-like movement.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 02:26:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou are missing two points:

1. If composition of atmosphere and rock as well as pressure, themperature etc in alien world are sufficiently similar to ours, than earthly crops (or at least some selected earthly plants) could also be grown there. You do not need to worry about native lifeforms if all necessary conditions to grow your own food are met.
Doing so you will no longer need any food supplies from Earth to keep party going, contrary to your initial argument.

2. You cannot assume that organisms in alien worlds MUST BE grossly different than life forms on Earth.


You have absolutely no grasp of natural selection and genetic mutations do you?


You have absolutely no argument against those presented above, do you?
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 03:06:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou have absolutely no argument against those presented above, do you?


I just gave them to you. LOL!
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 05:29:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou have absolutely no argument against those presented above, do you?


I just gave them to you. LOL!


Then I am unable to work out, what natural selection and genetic mutations have in comon with planting seeds/introducing microorganisms into the environment able to support their growth.

Sounds irrelevant to me.
Obviously new plants (or algis/bacterias) will also undergo mutations/natural selection with time, but it has nothing to do with their survival chances at the point of introduction.
With time they may even outcompete native lifefoms.
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Sat 17 Jun 2006, 05:54:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 05:45:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chicken_Little', '
')What part of 'it's not going to happen' didn't you understand?

You seem to be regurgitating the same wildly optimistic space fantasies I used to when i was 12 or 13.

Next you'll be telling us aliens built the Pyramids or something.


Chicken_Little,
You may always chicken out.

By the way there is no evidence that aliens had built pyramids or something (neither that they visited Earth in the past), but I bet you was keeping yourself busy with watching "Stargate".
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 12:28:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'T')hen I am unable to work out, what natural selection and genetic mutations have in comon with planting seeds/introducing microorganisms into the environment able to support their growth.


That is apparently obvious.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 12:52:10

Let's look at the patently obvious facts: It took a remarkable confluence of conditions and events that deposited life-forming chemicals on Earth, allowed simple life to gain a foothold and then protected the planet sufficiently and created just the right environmental factors for advanced life to slowly evolve through natural selection via random genetic mutations.

Random genetic mutations under certain conditions that make the duplication elsewhere even under the same exact conditions mathematically almost impossible in terms of reality.

And what are those "certain conditions"?


The proper distance from the sun to allow development of habitat for complex life and ensure that water remains liquid, not vapor or ice.

The proper mass to retain atmosphere and ocean.

Plate tectonics, which act as a sort of atmospheric thermostat, build land masses and enhance biotic diversity.

A neighbor the size of Jupiter, not too close and not too far away, that can use its gravity to protect the planet from too many life-extinguishing collisions with comets and asteroids.

A stable orbit unperturbed by giant planets.

A large moon at the right distance to stabilize tilt, thus ensuring seasonal climate fluctuations that are not too severe.

Enough carbon to support development of life but not so much to allow for runaway greenhouse conditions.

And since the closest star is 4.5 light years away. Good luck in your search and random guess-work project.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby J-Rod » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 13:27:28

I know he gets bashed a ton, but I've read all the Zecharia Sitchin books, and there is a strong case for the Annunaki. I think he may take a liberty here and there, but for the most part his research makes sense, if you can just begin to open your mind up to that things from ancient history may be taken literally...
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 16:13:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')And since the closest star is 4.5 light years away. Good luck in your search and random guess-work project.


I do not call for "random" exploration of various stellar systems.
(see my post from Fri. Jun 16; 5.54pm. for evidence).

All what I say is that in the future it may be technologically possible to pinpoint an alien planet ABLE to support earthly life and attempt to collonize it.
If such a planet is not found and pinpointed from EARTH, than there is nothing more to talk about (or fly to).
This mean NO RANDOM MISSIONS.

The "critical" conditions you specified are correct, but you may get rid of some of them if you are happy with microbial or/and aquatic only life.
For possible human collonization they all must be met.
If you take into account vastness of Galaxy it is very likely, that planets meeting those conditions do exist somewhere.
Scientists in general do agree with this argument and those who believe that Earth is unique and carbon based life does not exist in distant worlds as well are in minority.

In respect of mutations, natural selection and life development in alien worlds:
I am NOT arguing that history, development and appearance of alien forms of life MUST BE / LIKELY IS similar to those on Earth.
However there is a good chance that building blocs (aminoacids, nucleotides, carbohydrates etc) MAY BE similar to or identical with ours.
There is agreement in science, that chemical structures of those building blocs and majority of chemical processess responsible for metabolism remained unchanged through ENTIRE history of cellular forms of life on Earth.

This mean, that mutations etc will gradually "convert" fish to amfibian but Krebs cycle still remains unchanged for hundreds of millions of years.

I am also pointing that the apperance of alien organisms, their ability to mutate etc is not very important for survival of "earthly invaders", as long as they can outcompete natives (or at least establish an ecological niche on their planet).
Genetic engeenering of organisms expected to be a food source there would undoubtfully help them to establish such ecological niche.
At this point new settlement would become self sufficient and constant supplies from Earth or Biosphere 2 type of life would no longer be necessary.

Hence your assertions suggesting that it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to establish self-sustaining settlements of earthly life on ANY alien planet are false.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 21:20:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ingenuity_Gap', '
')Unless Stephen Hawking knows something we don't know (which is very probable), he should stop smoking that grass. It's not healthy and it makes him say stupid things.


Its not a stupid thing to say if it gets people to fund stuff that he is really interested in. More telescopes, more colliders, and more robotic planetary missions. That would be happiness as seen from Steven Hawking's wheelchair.


It's fascinating and a very-very stupid thing. Anybody can dream impossible dreams, and if they are dilligent enough, can eventually get funding for them.

More telescopes, colliders and robots is exactly what we don't need in the current circumstances. We have to understand our priorities.

Don't get me wrong, I have Star Trek like dreams since I learned to walk and talk. I wish things were different and we would build more and better telescopes, colliders and robots. But we are not in the position to do that right now.

I understand Hawking's impatience, but somebody with his knowledge and authority should choose his dreams more carefully.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 21:29:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')And since the closest star is 4.5 light years away. Good luck in your search and random guess-work project.


I do not call for "random" exploration of various stellar systems.


LOL! Did you forget your point in all of this?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')A few dozen of anything is a tenuous attempt at preventing extinction. Over generations of inbreeding, a gene pool this small of any animal becomes predisposed to genetic defects.

It's called biological extinction.


Genetic engeneering will deal with that.


How will you "randomly" engineer genetic mutations to avoid genetic defects?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you take into account vastness of Galaxy it is very likely, that planets meeting those conditions do exist somewhere.

Very likely? Planets, meaning more than one? You cannot be serious. Too much Star Trek class M planet brainwash.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ence your assertions suggesting that it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to establish self-sustaining settlements of earthly life on ANY alien planet are false.

Oh my god! We have been put in our place! LOL!
Last edited by MonteQuest on Sat 17 Jun 2006, 22:04:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 21:45:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')I am also pointing that the apperance of alien organisms, their ability to mutate etc is not very important for survival of "earthly invaders", as long as they can outcompete natives (or at least establish an ecological niche on their planet).
Genetic engeenering of organisms expected to be a food source there would undoubtfully help them to establish such ecological niche.
At this point new settlement would become self sufficient and constant supplies from Earth or Biosphere 2 type of life would no longer be necessary.


Invasion from Earth. This is the mindset of the early arrivals to this country. They decimated the local wildlife, (passenger pigeon and the American Bison come readily to mind) then focused on decimating and outcompeting the "natives".

No wonder we are in trouble on this planet.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby rwwff » Sat 17 Jun 2006, 22:22:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ingenuity_Gap', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')Its not a stupid thing to say if it gets people to fund stuff that he is really interested in. More telescopes, more colliders, and more robotic planetary missions. That would be happiness as seen from Steven Hawking's wheelchair.


It's fascinating and a very-very stupid thing. Anybody can dream impossible dreams, and if they are dilligent enough, can eventually get funding for them.

More telescopes, colliders and robots is exactly what we don't need in the current circumstances. We have to understand our priorities.


Each individual persons' priorities might be quite a bit different than yours or mine, or even the majority of humanity. Someone with no reproductive success but a large intellectual product, might have already come to the conclusion that a ramp up, crash, die off cycle is inevitable; and so now is the time to try and accomplish as much large scale science as possible.

They might believe, as do I, that as long as the population doesn't crash below a few million, most of our scientific knowledge could be preserved through such a bottleneck.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Don't get me wrong, I have Star Trek like dreams since I learned to walk and talk. I wish things were different and we would build more and better telescopes, colliders and robots. But we are not in the position to do that right now.


It appears that your assessment is at odds with the decisions of the worlds leadership. We are building ever more, bigger, and better telescopes, colliders, and interplanetary robotics; and I think we're going to do it right up until it becomes physically impossible to do.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 03:20:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'H')ow will you "randomly" engineer genetic mutations to avoid genetic defects?


Germ line genetic engeneering before insertion into womb.
1. harmful mutations can be eradicated (damaged genes replaced).
2. useful genes added (from the pool taken from Earth).
3. crippling genes remooved.

NB. You will soon see "designer babys" on the Earth (if not in US, than in China).

You may also note, that few species had recovered their populations regardless of very small numbers at some point and now are considered safe.
About 70 000 years ago human population had dropped to few thousands and look what we have now.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'V')ery likely? Planets, meaning more than one? You cannot be serious.


Typical doomer viev:
1. Bleak
2. Groundless
3. Shortsighted

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'O')h my god! We have been put in our place!


I assume, that you had put us here (at least according to your imaginations).
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 03:39:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Invasion from Earth. This is the mindset of the early arrivals to this country. They decimated the local wildlife, (passenger pigeon and the American Bison come readily to mind) then focused on decimating and outcompeting the "natives".

No wonder we are in trouble on this planet.


Troubles (if there are any) should rather be solved, not mouned about.

In respect of "dealing" with native species:
Those are only ethical issues.
You may take either "absolutely protective", "Nazi-like" or "balanced and reasonable" approach.
Last option is likely to be the best.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 12:04:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'H')ow will you "randomly" engineer genetic mutations to avoid genetic defects?


Germ line genetic engeneering before insertion into womb.
1. harmful mutations can be eradicated (damaged genes replaced).
2. useful genes added (from the pool taken from Earth).
3. crippling genes remooved.


Again, you have no grasp of natural selection do you? Genes that just so happen to promote survival and reproduction are selected in response to changing environmental conditions.

You presume to be as effective as nature in this selection?

What hubris!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'V')ery likely? Planets, meaning more than one? You cannot be serious.


Typical doomer viev:
1. Bleak
2. Groundless
3. Shortsighted


Ad hominem attacks do little to refute my point. The chances of a near exact duplication of our magnetosphere to our photoperiod to finding breathable atmosphere, and all the other criteria I listed earlier, all necessary for life here on earth, is extremely remote at best, not "very likely."

I don't think you quite grasp how unique an event life here on earth was, especially in light of the fact that we haven't found any other life anywhere else.
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Re: Stephen Hawking says humans must go into space

Unread postby SoothSayer » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 12:17:10

I don't think you quite grasp how unique an event life here on earth was, especially in light of the fact that we haven't found any other life anywhere else.

Just suppose that we ARE the only life form in the Universe .... that would make it ALL OURS ... sheesh!

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