Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Russian secondary peak approaches?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: A Russian oil bourse?

Unread postby BrazilianPO » Thu 11 May 2006, 08:19:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Petrodollar', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')mmm. I wonder if we will ultimately see a "basket of currencies" for global oil pricing and transactions in the: dollar, euro, yen/yuan and...ruble?


Good point – the US dollar regime will be replaced by some basket combination of currencies and/or commodities.

If you remember the early 70s, trade and budgetary problems were compounded by the fact that OPEC, followed by France and other countries, refused to be a part of the formal Bretton Woods US dollar regime established in 1944. After a few years of turbulence, and much higher prices for oil and gold, an informal Bretton Woods II dollar regime was worked into place by behind the scenes 'enforcers'. That has served us well until now.
The moves by Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela to drop out of the system were met by direct or covert military action by the US. But now Russia is essentially dropping out of the BWII - probably to be followed soon afterward by China.

The dollar will be then be in a state of collapse. The extra $1 trillion the US raked in from the rest of the world per year will be gone, and we'll have to get by on less. While the loss of $1 trillion a year by itself won't destroy us, the fact that we can not to adjust to such a sudden change will cause a depression.


This new development is very disturbing, and can be viewed as a sign of the times to come.

As the oil exporting countries realize their power ("the price goes up and my clients are still buying like if there was no tomorrow"), they will dictate the rules, until the economies start crumbling. Probably we will see every country trying to sell their oil in their own currency to reinforce it. I do not see a real problem, except for the dollar, if that happens, but it will be strange to have oil quoted in ten different currencies when we go to Bloomberg :roll: . Actually, as a Brazilian, I would like to see Brazil selling its excess oil in Brazilian Reais.
User avatar
BrazilianPO
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed 19 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Australia

Re: A Russian oil bourse?

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 11 May 2006, 08:51:25

Looks like Russia wants to be an "energy superpower". It is not expected that conversion to rubles for trading purposes can start before mid-July, with the Russian oil bourse to follow in 2007:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5')/11/06 What the Papers Say 00:00:00
What The Papers Say (Russia)
Copyright 2006 WPS Media Monitoring Agency

May 11, 2006
Issue 80
Section: PRESS EXTRACTS

A DEFENSE ADDRESS
Putin prepares the nation for a new arms race

Speaking of Russia's role in the global economy, Putin proposed an emphasis on development of a modern energy sector, communications, space exploration, aviation, and export of intellectual resources. He called Russian companies in the production sphere quite competitive and demanded "technological renovation of the energy production sector," better energy efficiency, and developing nuclear power sector. According to Badovsky, all these theses fit the energy superpower concept and the agenda of the forthcoming G8 summit, where the topic of energy security will be a focus of attention.

Putin once again reminded the government of the necessity to establish oil and gas stock exchanges operating with the ruble. Alexander Gladkov of the Economic Development Ministry maintains that oil auctions may be organized as soon as 2007, but stock exchanges will have to wait. As for gas, the appropriate ministries and departments are now working on the draft resolution concerning a gas stock exchange. In fact, they have been working on it since 2002. Gazprom and other producers are expected to offer 5 billion cubic meters of gas each for sale. Gladkov ascribes the delay to the fact that stock exchange sale is a market instrument which doesn't exactly fit the practice of sales to domestic consumers by Gazprom.


Sorry, no link possible.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey

Re: A Russian oil bourse?

Unread postby Petrodollar » Thu 11 May 2006, 09:30:54

This thread re petrocurrencys reminds of a white paper I read a couple of months ago. In early 2006, William White, the leading economist and head of monetary policy for the prestigious Bank for International Settlements (BIS), suggested that the current system of numerous floating currencies should be replaced with three or four regional currency blocks in a new Bretton Woods agreement. White also expressed concern about the reduction in household savings in English-speaking countries (the US, the UK, Australia and New Zealand), and suggested several reforms to the global monetary system,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '').First, consideration should be given to going back to a more rule-based [monetary] system…realistically, one might recommend a small number of more formally-based currency blocks (say, based on the dollar, euro and renminbi/yen)…Second, consideration could be given to a system more like that of Bretton Woods, but with the IMF accorded substantially more power to force both creditors and debtors to play their appropriate role in the international adjustment process…Third, consideration could be given to informal cooperative solutions, based on the mutual recognition of interdependencies and the need to avoid circumstances that could lead to systemic disruptions. At the very least, this would require representatives of large creditor countries to share views with debtors as to whether problems were emerging and, if so, what policies might help to resolve them.


William R. White, “Procyclicality in the financial system: do we need a new macrofinancial stabilisation framework,” Bank for International Settlements, BIS working paper No 193, January 2006, http://www.bis.org/publ/work193.pdf

White seems to be advocating an issue outlined in my book: the need for global monetary reform revolving basically three "reserve currency" blocs in an effort to begin rebalancing the global economy. Of course, to accomplish these difficult but necessary reforms, the US would need engage in multilateral negotiations with the other industrialized states. Tragically, that is not going to happen under the neoconservatives whose entire stated geopolitical platform is based on maintaining US economic and military supremacy as "far into the future as possible."

Anyhow, it appears that the Iranian bourse is slated to open up sometime in July (or sooner?), and if the Russians can get their act together this year, perhaps they'll open up an oil exchange in 2007 (but I would guess 2008 is a more realistic date). May has been a strange month this far....very high gold prices and surprising petrocurrency developments.
User avatar
Petrodollar
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Tue 19 Jul 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Maryland
Top

Re: A Russian oil bourse?

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 11 May 2006, 11:35:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Petrodollar', 'O')f course, to accomplish these difficult but necessary reforms, the US would need engage in multilateral negotiations with the other industrialized states. Tragically, that is not going to happen under the neoconservatives whose entire stated geopolitical platform is based on maintaining US economic and military supremacy as "far into the future as possible."


Yes, I agree with that.

Up until now, the first formal Bretton Woods system followed by the second informal, but even more effective, Bretton Woods II system that has served the US very well. As I stated further above, the US dollar is the lynchpin of the entire US military/economic regime.

The US will only voluntarily cast aside the BWII system and agree to a new exchange system under extreme pressure. Such pressure has historically occurred during a currency crisis, but it could also come due to a war or other major threat to the US.

While not the first to cast aside the US based dollar regime, Russia is the first to fully prepare for the new monetary order ahead (well maybe I should also include the Euro and Yen). After watching the ruble disintegrate in value during 1998, Russia now has exchange reserves climbing recently by $5 billion per week – in terms of US dollars (albeit that includes the increasing value of its gold reserves). Their remaining foreign debt of $22 billion (a legacy of the 90s crisis), now seems like a puny and unimportant amount - which they want to pay off soon.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey
Top

Russian Oil Bourse to Debut in '06, Official Says

Unread postby clueless » Tue 16 May 2006, 16:09:18

Can someone explain to me why in a sellers market oil traders are "Skeptical" of a Ruble or Euro demoninated bourse.

The countries that need to the oil are more desparate than the ones selling it, right ?

I don't understand it......
User avatar
clueless
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Just the right place

Re: Russian Oil Bourse to Debut in '06, Official Says

Unread postby RdSnt » Tue 16 May 2006, 16:52:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'C')an someone explain to me why in a sellers market oil traders are "Skeptical" of a Ruble or Euro demoninated bourse.

The countries that need to the oil are more desparate than the ones selling it, right ?

I don't understand it......


Not skeptical, fearful.
The US dollar is the defacto reserve currency that the world runs on.
It crashes, we all can look forward to the soup line.
Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
User avatar
RdSnt
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Wed 02 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Canada
Top

Re: Russian Oil Bourse to Debut in '06, Official Says

Unread postby Tuike » Tue 16 May 2006, 17:10:36

Is there a link to the story behind the headline that Russian oil bourse begins this year?

EDIT: I found myself, here: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2006/05/16/041.html
User avatar
Tuike
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon 10 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Finland

Re: Russian Oil Bourse to Debut in '06, Official Says

Unread postby DantesPeak » Tue 16 May 2006, 17:23:31

Try this:
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060515/48107520.html

Moscow's version of Wall Street says this can't get running by next year. We shall see. This is also another story (sorry no link available):

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5')/16/06 Moscow Times (Pg. Unavail. Online)
2006 WLNR 8358434
Moscow Times
Copyright 2006 IM Independent Press Ltd. Source: Financial Times Information Limited.

Oil Bourse to Debut in '06, Official Says

A senior economic official said Monday that Russia would have a domestic petroleum exchange -- an idea backed by President Vladimir Putin last week -- up and running by year's end, but experts doubted whether oil would trade internationally in rubles anytime soon.

Deputy Economic Development and Trade Minister Kirill Androsov, who is also a Rosneft board director, said a domestic exchange for oil products would begin trading by the end of 2006 and an international exchange that would sell crude oil sometime in 2007, RIA-Novosti reported.

Androsov provided at least a rough timetable for the idea, which Putin urged be put into effect in his annual state-of-the-nation address.

In the past, officials from Russia, Norway and Iran have talked about selling oil in euros since many of their trading partners are in the euro zone. But experts warn that large-scale oil trading in any currency other than the U.S. dollar would hurt a nation's relations with Washington, since the United States relies on oil purchases in dollars to keep demand for the greenback strong.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey
Top

Re: Russian Oil Bourse to Debut in '06, Official Says

Unread postby clueless » Tue 16 May 2006, 18:24:32

You mean the Trader's themselves are fearing being put out of business ?

I understand the ramifcations of the dollar being the world's reserve currency, but why do the institutions keep kabashing it ?

Putting this in practical terms, does this mean the Russian and Iranian economies will benefit from running the trading exchanges in their country ? Or is there to it than that ?

On the basis is the US controlling the only legal printing press alone would be enough for me to want to not accept dollars for commodities, but is there another reason ?
User avatar
clueless
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Tue 13 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Just the right place

Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby smiley » Wed 17 May 2006, 16:25:11

I was expecting a few treads to be opened on the little bombshell from Vladimir, but to my suprise I couldn't find any.

so what to think of this?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')il Bourse to Debut in '06, Official Says

A senior economic official said Monday that Russia would have a domestic petroleum exchange -- an idea backed by President Vladimir Putin last week -- up and running by year's end, but experts doubted whether oil would trade internationally in rubles anytime soon.

source

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he president called for the establishment of a Rouble-denominated oil and natural gas stock exchange in Russia. "The Rouble must become a more widespread means of international transactions. To this end, we need to open a stock exchange in Russia to trade in oil, gas, and other goods to be paid for in Roubles," he said.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')et’s make clear what this could mean eventually, with Russia supplying oil to the U.S., the U.S. will have to buy Roubles to pay for it just like other nations.


source2

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n his annual state of the nation address before both houses of parliament, ministers and reporters last week, President Putin called for the completion of work on making the national currency convertible, and for oil and gas to be traded in rubles on a domestic exchange.

“The ruble must become a more widespread means of international transactions,” Putin said. “To this end, we need to open a stock exchange in Russia to trade in oil, gas, and other goods to be paid for in rubles.”

source3
User avatar
smiley
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri 16 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Europe
Top

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby mekrob » Wed 17 May 2006, 17:49:50

Perhaps this is why Dick Cheney said that Putin is playing politics (or whatever he said exactly) with oil. Too bad dicky, no one wants your dollar anymore.
mekrob
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2408
Joined: Fri 09 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby lutherquick » Wed 17 May 2006, 18:08:59

smiley,

I would have posted something about the new Russian Oil Bourse but it's against protocol to speak bad news for the American dollar.

It's better to keep quite, Americans will wake up 5 years from now broke and hording Rubles, Yuan, Gold and dreaming of a Russian green card.
User avatar
lutherquick
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Fri 04 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: NJ

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby mekrob » Wed 17 May 2006, 18:40:32

I have a pretty good question (I think so anyway). If these nations are so smart, why don't they demand payment in something that is worth more than paper? Why not trade oil/gas for steel, concrete, minerals, gold, silver, technology, or whatever (just pulling stuff out of my ass)?
mekrob
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2408
Joined: Fri 09 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Wed 17 May 2006, 20:46:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'I') have a pretty good question (I think so anyway). If these nations are so smart, why don't they demand payment in something that is worth more than paper? Why not trade oil/gas for steel, concrete, minerals, gold, silver, technology, or whatever (just pulling stuff out of my ass)?


I garentee...NOBODY wants the stuff you pull out of your ass...:-D
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby RdSnt » Wed 17 May 2006, 20:57:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'I') have a pretty good question (I think so anyway). If these nations are so smart, why don't they demand payment in something that is worth more than paper? Why not trade oil/gas for steel, concrete, minerals, gold, silver, technology, or whatever (just pulling stuff out of my ass)?


They use to, it was called the Gold standard, and all currencies were backed by the value of gold.
Unfortunately when Nixon abandoned the gold standard for the US dollar, the rest of the 1st world nations foolishing followed along.
They should have let the US economy crash at that time. It would have been less painful for all around.

Now however, everyone is in so deep, they are all stark terrified of pulling the trigger.
This means that when the end finally comes, which will be very soon, the global economy will collapse in an unplanned heap.
Due mainly to cowardly politicians who are completely focused on winning the next election they don't recognize the crazed man with an ax coming up behind them to lop off their heads.
Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
User avatar
RdSnt
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Wed 02 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Canada
Top

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 17 May 2006, 21:54:38

I have no special liking for Russia, but at the rate they are accumulating foreign exchange reserves and gold, their currency may be one of the strongest in the next few years.

If they could make some kind of Euro-Ruble linkup, the new joint currency could replace the dollar.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby Russian_Cowboy » Thu 18 May 2006, 04:59:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'I') have no special liking for Russia, but at the rate they are accumulating foreign exchange reserves and gold, their currency may be one of the strongest in the next few years


This is exactly what Russian government is trying to avoid. The appreciation of the ruble has dramatically raised the cost of producing everything in Russia. Russian machinery-building industries are suffering a lot. This is why Russia's Central bank is gobbling foreign securities and the ruble inflation rate is running at 10% a year.
We do not inherit the Earth from our parents, but borrow it from our children - Antoine Saint Exupery
User avatar
Russian_Cowboy
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed 16 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby mekrob » Thu 18 May 2006, 07:16:09

Ok, thanks for the information about why they wouldn't go to something more valuable.

Something interesting though. The world exports about 50 mpd of oil. The nations that have thought about their own bourses (Iran, UAE, Norway and now Russia) account for about 14.5 mpd or roughly 29-30% of total world exports! Talk about a dent in the need for dollars! Thankfully we still have SA under our control (but for how long can be debated). But 14.5 mpd would reduce the need for dollars by roughly 1 billions dollars per day! Does anyone know the current circulation of dollars around the world?
mekrob
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2408
Joined: Fri 09 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby howard » Thu 18 May 2006, 11:22:53

this is crazy man... it was bad enough with iran changing their bourse but it seems confirmed now that the s@it is truly gonna hit the fan with russia & co doing it as well...

the main concern that iran changing to the euro was that it could create a domino effect but it looks like everyones gonna start anyway....
User avatar
howard
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri 14 Apr 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Russian Oil Bourse

Unread postby Leanan » Thu 18 May 2006, 12:00:38

There was some discussion of it a week ago:

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic20021.html
"The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place." - Albert Einstein
User avatar
Leanan
News Editor
News Editor
 
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu 20 May 2004, 03:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests