[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('untothislast', 'R')ead back through my previous entries on this post. Go on - all of them. Notice the several pertinent critiques - which none of the carnivores here have yet come up with adequate replies to.

[deMolay]

North America was in Pristine Condition not because the Natives were so all knowing about conservation but because they did not have the tools, their numbers were much smaller in Canada only some 3/50,000 Natives that is the only reason...I am speaking about the culture in general not basing it on an experience with one native Apache...I have seen the aftermath of Native culture on wild life in this area and they will butcher and sell the meat without restraint if possible..Claiming treaty rights...I too have personal experience with Native culture first hand all the time..Two springs ago after a heavy winter the Elk came out of the bush near here into a forest meadow by the road...A Native so called pipe carrier big time into animism and so called Native culture slaughtered the pregnant cows pulled the calves out of their stomachs and returned each day to renew his slaughter...The fish and wildlife officers could do nothing as he was a treaty Native...All they could do was try to haze them with a chopper back into the bush..But they were exhausted with the winter and heavy snow's and kept returning to be slaughtered..Don't preach to me about Native culture and them being the answer as I can recount many incidents like that here in Canada...As to their old practises look up Head Smashed In or Jumping Pound if you want to see how Native Culture using their traditional methods killed far more than needed buffalo...By the way the above mentioned Native had a good paying Government job and did not need the meat..Natives in Canada also get all healthcare, schooling and homes etc provided free...

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('untothislast', 'T')ed Bundy should have used that line in court.

[gary_malcolm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')Human. Animal. NOT the same thing!

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gary_malcolm', 'J')ust don't pretend to be 'above' your food just because you have a fancy brain.

[deMolay]

Green Commies and Socialists are the new in thing...Even tho history has docummented millions some say over 150 million citizens butchered by these political systems worldwide.... read about the Chinese Communist butchers here... www.ninecommentaries.com It is an agenda of the left, and individual freedoms and liberty mean nothing to them...They will soon be taxing meat in the form of fat taxes etc...Let them eat bread and water that way they are not killing any other organism such as animal or vegetable until they agree to that they are just nutcase control freaks...

[coyote]

deMolay, that is indeed a shocking story. I am sorry that such things happen where you are, and i am sorry that seeing that has led you to a distorted view of Native Americans in general. All cultures with which I am familiar would be just as sickened as I am by what you described.

On a lighter note: as for the 'Green Commies,' I can't help you out with that. I'll let you know if I see one...

[abelardlindsay]

I just had to chime in with this whole Native American/Vegan thing. The reason almost the entire population of the new world was exterminated by diseases when the Europeans arrived was that the native americans did not domesticate animals.

You see all the most terrible diseases are species jumping diseases. For instance domestication of camels and cows by eurasions led to camel pox and cowpox jumping species and infecting humans with smallpox which is easily transmissable and 98% fatal to people without an inherited immunity to it. Same goes for the flus, and plauges, and most of the other diseases responsible for exterminating a very large percentage of the native inhabitants of North America. So societies that domesticate animals will always have a natural advantage over those that don't. Perhaps the diseases are the way domesticated species have evolved to protect their domesticators from cultures that would otherwise not help them breed.

[untothislast]

The 'diseases' may actually be the driving force behind evolutionary change on the planet. We, the 'hosts', just happened to have a lot of time on our hands, and human society - and all our cultural and scientific achievements - developed on a purely incidental basis.

From an old (2000) but interesting article:

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf130/sf130p06.htm

'It is relevant that mtDNA is not the nDNA (nuclear DNA) that is the primary determinant of an animal's morphology and other attributes. Scientific consensus now holds that mtDNA comes from bacteria that invaded complex cells (eukaryotes) and set up housekeeping in them eons ago. The mitochondria are called "endosymbionts," but we must wonder how symbiotic they really are. Not only does mtDNA mutate much faster than nDNA ("our" DNA), but the mitochondria the mtDNA serves must have different evolutionary goals from us; that is, mitochondria might really be parasites and we are their hosts!'

[gg3]

Leftie-vegans ("meat is murder!") and rightie-racists ("natives are nigg- uh, er, savages!") again. Sigh.

Okay, now everybody put your right index finger on your right front tooth. Now move your finger one tooth further to the right. Now move it one more tooth to the right. Now feel around the bottom of that tooth, and you will notice a sharp little point.

Now do the same on the left side: put your left index finger on your left front tooth and then move your finger two teeth to the left, and feel around the bottom of that tooth and notice the sharp little point.

Those sharp pointy teeth are your canines. Herbivores don't have sharp pointy teeth. Carnivores and omnivores do. Nature gave you those sharp pointy teeth so you'd have the option of eating meat.

Now if you don't want to eat meat at all, that's your choice, and we're all free to choose whether or not to eat meat.

But puh-leeze! don't go saying that eating meat isn't natural.

[untothislast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'L')eftie-vegans ("meat is murder!") and rightie-racists ("natives are nigg- uh, er, savages!") again. Sigh.

Okay, now everybody put your right index finger on your right front tooth. Now move your finger one tooth further to the right. Now move it one more tooth to the right. Now feel around the bottom of that tooth, and you will notice a sharp little point.

Now do the same on the left side: put your left index finger on your left front tooth and then move your finger two teeth to the left, and feel around the bottom of that tooth and notice the sharp little point.

Those sharp pointy teeth are your canines. Herbivores don't have sharp pointy teeth. Carnivores and omnivores do. Nature gave you those sharp pointy teeth so you'd have the option of eating meat.

Now if you don't want to eat meat at all, that's your choice, and we're all free to choose whether or not to eat meat.

But puh-leeze! don't go saying that eating meat isn't natural.

[Grifter]

I think gg3 was only against the unnatural argument and not trying to convince people that they should eat meat.

I'd like to ask if it is ok to kill animals to protect our crops, Rabbits, Deer and the like? If we didn't then there's less food for us and the animals keep experiencing overshoot and dieoff.

If we do have to kill them, surely it is right to eat them, I would rather I was fed to animals after my death than just wasted.

I don't know much about ethics so I wouldn't be able to offer a well structured argument about the 'natural' behaviour of rapists and murderers, but it does seem to me that to have evil people in the world is just as natural as to have good and wholesome ones, so using ideas of natural or unnatural in an argument about the rights or wrongs of eating meat is unhelpful.

[untothislast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Grifter', 'I') think gg3 was only against the unnatural argument and not trying to convince people that they should eat meat.

I'd like to ask if it is ok to kill animals to protect our crops, Rabbits, Deer and the like? If we didn't then there's less food for us and the animals keep experiencing overshoot and dieoff.

If we do have to kill them, surely it is right to eat them, I would rather I was fed to animals after my death than just wasted.

I don't know much about ethics so I wouldn't be able to offer a well structured argument about the 'natural' behaviour of rapists and murderers, but it does seem to me that to have evil people in the world is just as natural as to have good and wholesome ones, so using ideas of natural or unnatural in an argument about the rights or wrongs of eating meat is unhelpful.

[gg3]

Quoth Untothislast: " If you're out walking and you find a dead animal and bird - go right ahead, take it home, cook and eat it - it would be stupid not to."

Actually, it would be one of the stupidest things you ever did, if you lived to tell the tale.

If you find a dead animal, chances are that it has already started to decompose and is thereby infested with all manner of incredibly dangerous bacteria. Also it might have died of some disease that is transmissible to humans. Pick it up with your hands, and by the time you've carried it to a place where you can cook it, you've already slimed yourself with bacterial soup. And even if you cook it to a well-done crisp, any toxins produced by the bacteria (there are many) are still present and active.

Untothislast has just won the Daily Darwin Award for not only missing a lifesaving vital point, but for calling it a smart choice. The prize is negative credibility.

Sorry dude, you did it to yourself.


--

As for Sesame Street:

Smoggy day,
everything's charcoal gray,
On my way past where the gangstas meet
Can you tell me how to get-
-get away from Reality Street?

[untothislast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'Q')uoth Untothislast: " If you're out walking and you find a dead animal and bird - go right ahead, take it home, cook and eat it - it would be stupid not to."

Actually, it would be one of the stupidest things you ever did, if you lived to tell the tale.

If you find a dead animal, chances are that it has already started to decompose and is thereby infested with all manner of incredibly dangerous bacteria. Also it might have died of some disease that is transmissible to humans. Pick it up with your hands, and by the time you've carried it to a place where you can cook it, you've already slimed yourself with bacterial soup. And even if you cook it to a well-done crisp, any toxins produced by the bacteria (there are many) are still present and active.

Untothislast has just won the Daily Darwin Award for not only missing a lifesaving vital point, but for calling it a smart choice. The prize is negative credibility.

Sorry dude, you did it to yourself.


--

As for Sesame Street:

Smoggy day,
everything's charcoal gray,
On my way past where the gangstas meet
Can you tell me how to get-
-get away from Reality Street?

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'I')f you find a dead animal, chances are that it has already started to decompose and is thereby infested with all manner of incredibly dangerous bacteria.

[eastbay]

Hey!

... I always thought those two conveniently sharp teeth allowed humans the option to chomp on food such as carrots and other roots.

Seriously, are the tiny incisors we have really needed for eating meat... how useful are the two little ones humans have anyhow? I bet if they happened to be flat rather than pointy it wouldn't make any difference.

But back to the excellent topic of this thread... eating farm harvested animals is as wasteful as commuting solo in a Hummer. I find it peculiar, maybe even hypocritical, when many of those calling for rational energy use consume factory animals, which is a horribly wasteful use of energy, particularly as humanity enters the peak oil era.