[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', 'I') was kind of expecting that... but it's not lack of algebraic comprehension or a solid understanding of the exponential function.

So why is conservation not good? Or infact actually bad? Can you elaborate?

[Ludi]

Nah, being a frugal lazybones doesn't hurt Society more than some other action I could take, like being a hardworking spendthrift who gets sick, can't work, and has to go on public assistance.

I prefer my way, selfish though it may be.

Tough on y'all. You can go work and consume your way into Heaven if you want to.

Whatever.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', 'P')ersonally I think Jevons paradox (sometimes called rebound effect) breaks down in a world where net available energy supply is reducing. If conservation of energy doesn't increase your wealth (since energy price has gone up) and/or if conservation doesn't reduce the price of energy (since energy total supply has fallen by at least as much as you conserved) then Jevons paradox simply doesn't apply post peak.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'l')ower than it would have been otherwise.

[pilferage]

The common tragedy yes yes yes...

But in all seriousness Aaron, you seem to be basing your post on an assumption that hasn't been shown to be true, i.e. infinite growth.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')aron your argument is economic. The study of evolution, ethology, and human psychology suggest that maternalism and its group corollary altruism are genetically predisposed. The same mechanism that promotes self-sacrifice allows conservation to succeed, regardless of what market mechanism you believe controls human nature and behavior.

[Texas_T]

Jevons paradox is fundamentally flawed for a simple reason....it is virtually impossible to define "conservation". Conservation as it applies to energy really means an increase in efficiency...and efficiency is a relative not an absolute term.

Let me illustrate:

Say that you and I live next door to each other in identical houses with identical heating systems. We each keep our thermostats set at 72 degrees all winter, nice and toasty. Now, I become a misguided "greenie" and decide to keep my thermostat at 68 degrees to "conserve".....of course we all agree that this is a TERRIBLE thing because it will simply hasten our collective demise. So you can stay smug, knowing that you have not made any miguided attempts to "conserve".....

But wait a minute...you are actually "conserving" as well....BS you say, I have my thermostat at a toasty 72 degrees....well you COULD set it higher than that, say at 80 or 90 degrees, and if you get too warm just open some windows. But since you have chosen a relatively "efficient" setpoint of 72 degrees, you are just as guilty of evil "conservation" efforts as am I.

Or, lets say that we both drive big SUV's that get an average of 15 miles per gallon. In my misguided greenie zeal, I trade mine in on a hybrid, which gets 60 miles to the gallon. I am only killing us off faster, you say? Well, you are too....the reason being that you COULD own and drive an SUV that gets even lower mileage, say 10 miles to the gallon....therefore again you have made the choice to conserve by driving a vehicle that is RELATIVELY efficient.

Efficiency is a continuum....whatever you do, chances are there are more efficient ways to do it and less efficient ways.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')As for me, I consume and shall continue to do so. I will prepare as best I can. And in the end, when the starving hordes come to take what they can, I shall give them a memorable welcome.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou obviously did not read my last post. There has been a sea-change in our understanding of evolutionary behavior: we are programmed to be friends with other people. The rest is propaganda used to wage endless war. I am sorry that this is not taught today but then it would destroy the system as effectively as oil depletion will.

[pilferage]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut in all seriousness Aaron, you seem to be basing your post on an assumption that hasn't been shown to be true, i.e. infinite growth.

[Ayoob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')ou obviously did not read my last post. There has been a sea-change in our understanding of evolutionary behavior: we are programmed to be friends with other people. The rest is propaganda used to wage endless war. I am sorry that this is not taught today but then it would destroy the system as effectively as oil depletion will.

[Ludi]

Personally, I think cooperation is learned behavior and not genetic, but *shrug*

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')ersonally, I think cooperation is learned behavior and not genetic, but *shrug*

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')
Ahh, but I did read it. Quite carefully.

You suggest a change in the understanding of evolutionary behavior; yes, I am aware that some are proponents of that idea. I remain unconvinced.

Take away people's toys, their security - add some fear - inflict some hunger - and you will witness a wondrous transformation. The meek, self-effacing, gentle-person will suddenly become a ravening merciless beast.

Perhaps you will witness it in others; or, perhaps you will discover it within yourself. But make no mistake, the beast is part of us; it lives, just below the surface. Nor will it be denied for long.