[Ludi]

We also fail to remember we don't know the people we are talking to (or about). Case in point:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'K')ing M. Save your breath.

There are two types of people on this board.

People who are very dissatisified with the current structure of society. They think and hope Peak Oil is going to destroy the status quo. They think that is a good thing.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', 'T')his does not qualify you as an energy specialist, economist, sociologist,
statistical modeller, petro geologist, energy market analyst or
anything else.

You need all of the latter and more to really understand PO so may I humbly suggest you are not in a "position to know"" all that much at all.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', ' ')You know if you're into the crystal ball game then you could make it
easy on the rest of us by being SPECIFIC and tied to DATES.

Like a series of bullet points that operationalise a specific outcome
and date. Otherwise it's just a case of pick your evidence.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')e also fail to remember we don't know the people we are talking to (or about). Case in point:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'K')ing M. Save your breath.

There are two types of people on this board.

People who are very dissatisified with the current structure of society. They think and hope Peak Oil is going to destroy the status quo. They think that is a good thing.

[Ludi]

I don't know anyone who "advocates" a die-off, they just see it as inevitable.

I'm in-between. I want to avert a die-off ( a sudden die-off I mean - I do believe we need to reduce our population, but not by killing people, letting them starve, etc) , however, as much as I've studied this, especially agriculture, the less I believe it's probable we will be able to do such a thing. This is because I feel we are at or near peak oil, and I don't see evidence of solutions being implemented in a timely manner.

My natural optimism keeps me a moderate, my (admittedly poor) reasoning ability pushes me toward the doomer camp.

[Daryl]

Well, don't believe this nonsense that the US doesn't have the resources to build electric cars and more power plants. The cost is peanuts and it will be easily accomplished in the crisis environment that higher oil prices will create. Obviously EV's and nuke power plants are not a utopian solution, but we should be happy the technology is available and affordable, otherwise the prospects might be grim. Society will still have serious environmental issues to address and a whole lot of other funky stuff as well. But nuclear electricity generation will buy us alot of time, maybe even enough that we find utopian techno-fix.

In the very long run, I agree with doomers in one sense. The sun will burn out one day. I doubt we're getting off the planet and if you know anything about astronomy, there is no where to go that we can reach or find anyway. Our job as living organisms is to fight to survive as long as we can, not get depressed and give up.

[lakeweb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'B')ut our current path is unsustainable. If the wheels fall off is not the question, it is when. Since we don't know the URR and we won't know the rate of oil decline, and we don't know how soon the Central banks will exit the dollar...

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', ' ')You know if you're into the crystal ball game then you could make it
easy on the rest of us by being SPECIFIC and tied to DATES.

Like a series of bullet points that operationalise a specific outcome
and date. Otherwise it's just a case of pick your evidence.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'W')ell, don't believe this nonsense that the US doesn't have the resources to build electric cars and more power plants. The cost is peanuts and it will be easily accomplished in the crisis environment that higher oil prices will create. Obviously EV's and nuke power plants are not a utopian solution, but we should be happy the technology is available and affordable, otherwise the prospects might be grim. Society will still have serious environmental issues to address and a whole lot of other funky stuff as well. But nuclear electricity generation will buy us alot of time, maybe even enough that we find utopian techno-fix.

In the very long run, I agree with doomers in one sense. The sun will burn out one day. I doubt we're getting off the planet and if you know anything about astronomy, there is no where to go that we can reach or find anyway. Our job as living organisms is to fight to survive as long as we can, not get depressed and give up.

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'W')ell, don't believe this nonsense that the US doesn't have the resources to build electric cars and more power plants. The cost is peanuts and it will be easily accomplished in the crisis environment that higher oil prices will create.

[azreal60]

A few comments, as i think i am starting to see where the frustrated new people who are posting are missing what monte and matt and ludi and others are trying to say.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, don't believe this nonsense that the US doesn't have the resources to build electric cars and more power plants. The cost is peanuts and it will be easily accomplished in the crisis environment that higher oil prices will create

[perplexd]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'I')f global civilization powers down, billions will die, if not everybody in the nuclear wars that would inevitably break out.

[perplexd]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'W')ell, don't believe this nonsense that the US doesn't have the resources to build electric cars and more power plants. The cost is peanuts

[perplexd]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', 'H')uman beings will meet this challenge. We have failings but we also have amazing capacity when up against the wall.

What other choice do we have? A gun and medievalism?

[perplexd]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('azreal60', 'D')o you like the idea of laundry day?

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', '
')
So what have they done to prevent this crisis/catastrophe/apocalypse (delete as applicable)? What have they actually done? What actions have they taken to prevent this "crisis environment"? What have they done to mitigate the potentially disastrous consequences, given the fact that implementing a nationwide fleet of electric cars and nuclear plants is "peanuts"?

Bottom line : It's not a future thing, it's a now thing. One year, 5 years.. who gives a sh*t? It's going to happen, we all know it... so what is the government doing NOW to deal with it?

I don't see electric cars, I don't see massive efforts to replace oil in our day to day lives. I do see a war, a resource war. And that tells me we're f*cked, because if changing over to electric cars was so freakin' easy, you'd think they'd have done it by now.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('azreal60', 'W')hy will we not do what you see as such an obvious thing to do? Because people have tied themselves, litterally to the death, to a vision of how they should act. It's called a culture. Our very culture enshrines consumption. Most of western civilization does the same. Go all over the world, and successful businesspeople are the ones who increase growth. Increasing growth Always means more resource depletion. Are you telling me your going to change an entire culture by posting on a board on the internet? If you can do that, hell, you better change your sig to "jesus".

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'E')ven our own government (the Hirsh Report) says it wil necessitate 10 to 20 years pre-peak preparedness to alleviate massive social/economical upheaval.

[orz]

Nice addition JD.

I'm sure someone is going to come in and call these measures fascist, but similar methods have been enacted by the government before. Only question is will they have the gall to do so.

[doufus]

Yep,

nice contrib JD. But doomers will just say it's impossible to implement,
not enough even if it was and too late in any case.

The only reason doomers stay alive is to bring the rest of us down.

It would be sad if it wasn't so funny.

Reminds me of monty python skits- "You think you had it bad, we lived
in a hole in the ground! That's nothing, we lived at the bottom of a
lake, ate broken glass for breakfast ya da ya da ya da."

Boring but funny.