[orz]

What you choose to believe is irrelevant.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('orz', 'W')hat you choose to believe is irrelevant.

[KingM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('orz', ' ')I have no reason to believe you.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('orz', ' ')I have no reason to believe you.

[orz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow is a new infrastructure within our means if we can't even maintain the existing infrastructure?

[KingM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Honey, baby, sweetie-pie. I'm not even a doomer! I'm a moderate, and pretty darned optimistic. I just see many lame arguments supporting hopeful wishes here, with little evidence.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('orz', ' ')I could do a bit of research about the rail thing and prove that it would not be costly, but you're not in a position to affect change, so what's the use.

[orz]

What else can they be other than opinions? None of us here can predict the future. Just trying to give my take on it.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', '
')
How are you a moderate if you think that modern technology is incapable of achieving what our proto-industrial ancestors did with fewer resources of every kind?

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', '
')
I think you underestimate what humans can do when properly motivated. The Russians moved their entire industrial base east of the Urals as the Germans overran European Russia and the Ukraine. Americans sent men to the moon with less computing power that I have in my cell phone.

If stuff gets hairy I have little doubt that the remaining (and still plentiful) oil resources will be rationed, war-style, to do whatever it takes to overhaul the infrastructure to deal with new realities. People on this site keep saying how broke and overstretched the United States and other countries are. Sure, but only in the pursuit of useless crap and providing generous social services. On a war footing social spending would disappear and other draconian measures would occur to see that the battle would be won.

Now, my view is that the pain could be greatly lessened with a little foresight. We could embark on a massive rail/nuclear/wind program tomorrow and probably emerge in ten years wealthier and with cleaner air. Of course, this won't happen, but when the years of ominous rumbling finally hit with an energy Pearl Harbor, you can bet that we'll fight like hell to win the war.

[KingM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
') It's folks like you who make me tend toward the doomer side, because you don't seem interested in really understanding the problem. If you, a person intelligent enough to come here and read a bit about the issue, aren't interested in really understanding it and the changes we'll have to make to avoid the worst, what hope is there that the average Joe is going to be even slightly interested in thinking about the problem, let alone making the needed changes?

[perplexd]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', 'b')ecause I don't agree with your bleak assessment means I haven't read about the issue or aren't interested in "understanding" it?

Past apocalyptic visions have failed to materialize.

[KingM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('perplexd', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', 'b')ecause I don't agree with your bleak assessment means I haven't read about the issue or aren't interested in "understanding" it?

Past apocalyptic visions have failed to materialize.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', 'T')his does not qualify you as an energy specialist, economist, sociologist,
statistical modeller, petro geologist, energy market analyst or
anything else.

You need all of the latter and more to really understand PO so may I humbly suggest you are not in a "position to know"" all that much at all.

[perplexd]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', 'S')ure, it might happen, but I think the worst might still be avoided.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('perplexd', '
')
And hunger and cold are the best motivators of all!

[Ludi]

Wow, KingM, you're such a jerk you can't even take a compliment!

To heck with you!

[Daryl]

King M. Save your breath.

There are two types of people on this board.

People who are very dissatisified with the current structure of society. They think and hope Peak Oil is going to destroy the status quo. They think that is a good thing.

The other people, like you and myself and others, are trying to discuss how society is going to make the adjustment from cheap oil and still be successful. It is going to be a challenge and there are some risks involved, but it is obviously doable.

If global civilization powers down, billions will die, if not everybody in the nuclear wars that would inevitably break out. The people in group one want this to happen. They are under the naive illusion that life will be better afterward. After the population of the world is reduced to the size that can support a hunter gatherer society, they think some kind of utopian ecofairyland will miraculously emerge. I think is going to be a bunch of smelly illiterates with bad teeth fighting over pieces of raw meat, while they freeze their asses off waiting to die of old age at 34. 10 minutes with that crowd and Kunstler will be running for his Chevy Suburban, a day at the Tanning Hut and a nice hot whirlpool in his air conditioned McMansion.

[KingM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ow, KingM, you're such a jerk you can't even take a compliment!

To heck with you!

[KingM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', 'T')he only people I really have a problem with are those whose post-crash survival plan involves rendering the body fat of the optimists like me for their candles and making haggis from our intestines.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KingM', '
')
Compliment? Where?