[DefiledEngine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I'm posting this, without reading the rest of the thread cause the objections to "socialism" are founded on the following private thought:
"The hell with it, bring me the die-off so I can continue living like an idiot in my eco-farm without the genetically inferior tards. I hope that Lynch is one of them, I lost so much money following his advice ".

[cornholio]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'C')ornholio> To your point #2. What could be more mainstream than Warren Buffet and Bill Gates the two most weatlhier people of US economy? They are both hedging against dollar. They believe that further 20-30% devaluation is necessary now to escape from the debt burden for a while. That would be more than cumulative 50% devaluation of $ currency from the year 2000 for god's sake! Proposal for loosing 50% value of currency in 6years isn't a strong indication of something rotten in the world's reserve currency and strong trend to you? Got the picture already?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'I')n the meantime .... we will be building nuclear power plants and offshore wind farms faster than the concrete can harden and move everything to the fucking grid

[cornholio]

EnergySpin- I think I best fit #6, too much free time on my hands. I cut back on work recently and have had time to browse thru the internet for conspiracy theories, and here I am.

I am finding that I have socialist leanings. Capitalism is good for stimulating growth, as people rush for and compete for resources, but in times of shortage it will not address distribution of wealth and resources adequately. When survival is an issue distribution of resources must be the priority.

Also, thru doomer fantasies, I have realized that facing even the idea of starvation is scary... So, I will do more for charities now.

I imagine we have a lot of socialism in our future as the aging baby boomers (who didnt save for retirement) vote for expanded social security and medicaid. Couple this demographic trend with deminishing oil and a slipping stock market and socialism (called something else) is sure to appear again. The bad thing is that they will simultaneously fight inheritance or any other tax on the truely wealthy : (

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'I')n the meantime .... we will be building nuclear power plants and offshore wind farms faster than the concrete can harden and move everything to the fucking grid

[Heineken]

I'm a socialist for many reasons, but chief among them is both a desire and a need to witness the destruction of the U.S. medical "system" (so-called) (I say "need" because I am about to lose my health insurance.)

If American docs like cornholio (and pharmacists and RNs and other overpaid medicos) were really serious about their supposed mission, they'd be lobbying hard to overturn the current incestuous, profit-driven system of rationing and price fixing and forms layered on forms. I'd bet only 20% of the health care dollars spent in this stupid country ever reach the patient directly. Instead, the medicos and their octopus-like organizations, hand-in-crotch with the government, keep grubbing for ever more money.

It's time to get rid of the specialists, burst the bloated salaries, scrap the exotic technology and procedures (which increasingly have as their primary effect the extension of the lives of dying rich people by a few more weeks), and bring good basic health care to everyone.

[thuja]

well said Heineken- the current medical system is a joke and eventually will go through a major crisis as the government will not be able to support the bloated pharmaceutical companies and overpaid medical establishment.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I')'m a socialist for many reasons, but chief among them is both a desire and a need to witness the destruction of the U.S. medical "system" (so-called) (I say "need" because I am about to lose my health insurance.)

If American docs like cornholio (and pharmacists and RNs and other overpaid medicos) were really serious about their supposed mission, they'd be lobbying hard to overturn the current incestuous, profit-driven system of rationing and price fixing and forms layered on forms. I'd bet only 20% of the health care dollars spent in this stupid country ever reach the patient directly. Instead, the medicos and their octopus-like organizations, hand-in-crotch with the government, keep grubbing for ever more money.

It's time to get rid of the specialists, burst the bloated salaries, scrap the exotic technology and procedures (which increasingly have as their primary effect the extension of the lives of dying rich people by a few more weeks), and bring good basic health care to everyone.

[Heineken]

Another aspect of health care that desperately needs reform is medical education. The whole thing is too elitist and exclusive and long and difficult and expensive. Although the official reason for all this is that it protects patients, the real reason is to create and build a moat around a medical priesthood dedicated primarily to extending the lives of the dying rich by a few weeks and to exalting the status and pay of practitioners. Doctors should not have godlike status in society. Having that status makes them think society is there to serve them instead of the other way around.

We need a new cadre of fully independent caregivers with hands-on, as opposed to extensive academic, training. People who can fix broken bones, suture lacerations, deliver babies, prescribe drugs, and provide all the ordinary sort of care that most people need most of the time. Perhaps there would be more risk for some patients, but at least nearly everyone would have access and be able to afford care.

[LadyRuby]

My biggest problem with doomers is that no matter what alternative course of action or direction that our future could take, they reject these alternative scenarios without serious consideration. This is why I think doomers can be extremely narrow-minded. They seem afraid to acknowledge that the future may turn out differently than they think, perhaps because they've invested too much (emotionally, financially, otherwise) in their doomer scenario.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')ost general practitioners make very little money

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'M')y biggest problem with doomers is that no matter what alternative course of action or direction that our future could take, they reject these alternative scenarios without serious consideration. This is why I think doomers can be extremely narrow-minded. They seem afraid to acknowledge that the future may turn out differently than they think, perhaps because they've invested too much (emotionally, financially, otherwise) in their doomer scenario.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'A')nother aspect of health care that desperately needs reform is medical education. The whole thing is too elitist and exclusive and long and difficult and expensive. Although the official reason for all this is that it protects patients, the real reason is to create and build a moat around a medical priesthood dedicated primarily to extending the lives of the dying rich by a few weeks and to exalting the status and pay of practitioners. Doctors should not have godlike status in society. Having that status makes them think society is there to serve them instead of the other way around.

We need a new cadre of fully independent caregivers with hands-on, as opposed to extensive academic, training. People who can fix broken bones, suture lacerations, deliver babies, prescribe drugs, and provide all the ordinary sort of care that most people need most of the time. Perhaps there would be more risk for some patients, but at least nearly everyone would have access and be able to afford care.

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'M')y biggest problem with doomers is that no matter what alternative course of action or direction that our future could take, they reject these alternative scenarios without serious consideration. This is why I think doomers can be extremely narrow-minded. They seem afraid to acknowledge that the future may turn out differently than they think, perhaps because they've invested too much (emotionally, financially, otherwise) in their doomer scenario.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'T')he doomers, on the other hand, seem only to acknowledge one possible outcome.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')ost general practitioners make very little money

[lowem]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'Y')es, the end of "cheap" energy is nigh. Connect the dots.

[GreyZone]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'I') disagree. Most people on this board who aren't doomers, in my view at least, seem to acknowledge that there are many possible outcomes and although we know things may get very difficult, that we don't know exactly how things will shake out (too many variables, unknowns, etc.). The doomers, on the other hand, seem only to acknowledge one possible outcome.

[cornholio]

Doctor's aren't starving, but primary care doctors arent rolling in dough either. After spending 11 years further training after highschool (long hours) a primary care physician will have about 100,000 in debt, zero savings, be renting at age 30 rather than owning a house as their peers do, and have higher risk of suicide and divorce than the average person. They will expect to work more than 60 hours a week, carry a beeper, work some nights and weekends and face endless paperwork and phone calls. In addition to work in the clinic and hospital many get to manage a small business (a clinic) with margins tight enough that going out of business while working 60 hours a week is a distinct possibility. Unlike in the olden-days, today you can bill whatever you want... insurance will decide how much you are paid. Of the dollar you bill 50 cents is collected, of which 25 cents goes to pay overhead. In todays environment you are more likely to be an employee than to own your practice, and more likely to be grouped with nurses and PA's as a "health care provider" rather than revered as a doctor. The pay is higher than the average wage, but so is the screening process, the stress of the training, the duration of the training, the daily workload and responsibility and the risk. If your goal is easy money or unquestioning respect or getting home at a predictable hour primary care is not for you... You will have better luck in technology, law, business or nearly any other field...

Regarding the healthcare dollar, fully 30% goes to administration. The remaining 70% which goes to patient care is divided as below... Physician Services include services provided in the hospital and all clinic visits and the cost of running the clinics...


Administrative costs could have been tackled with the Clinton health plan, which was shot down (a single payer system). Pharmacy costs have never been reigned in and we pay a huge premium compared to the rest of the world for our medications. Tort reform has also been limited, and the legal environment encourages defensive (excessive) testing. And, for lack of a national health system the cost of caring for the uninsured is basically passed back to those with insurance through increased charges.

I think the demographics of the baby boom (and increased social security and madicaid expense) will force a major change in the way healthcare is provided in the US... That is probably a good thing.


The system's wealth (and lack of courage) have kept us from honestly discussing rationing of medications and care... We have taken the high road and acted as though such discussions were not necessary or dignified for a topic as important as healthcare. Scarcity and debt will make hard choices necessary. While it is easy to scale up medical systems I'm guessing it will be much harder to scale down services and expectations. Healthcare is a right, but I'm guessing that the healthcare we can afford to provide in the future will look different than that we are used to seeing today.

PS- The demographic of the aging, underinsured, under-saving, entitled, voting majority Baby Boomers that used to be my reason for concern about the future... PeakOil will not help things at all...

[cornholio]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GreyZone', 'V')erbally acknowledging that other outcomes are possible is hardly taking them seriously. People acknowledge that we might get an asteroid strike someday but no one actually takes that seriously right now. And by seriously, I mean that no one actually modifies their actual behavior patterns to include consideration of the possible effects of such an event.