[holmes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'G')reenPeace are a bunch of fucking loonies. Like a Democrat thats undergone advanced re-education really.

[Graeme]

11. JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader—Green) to the Minister of Energy: Has he received an invitation from the International Energy Agency to comment on its draft report Saving Oil in a Hurry: Measures for Rapid Demand Restraint in Transport; if so, how will he respond?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Energy): No, I have not. New Zealand officials attended an International Energy Agency workshop on saving oil in a hurry, and demand restraint measures for transport, on 7 and 8 March this year. I am advised that the key messages from that workshop will be incorporated into the International Energy Agency publication referred to in the question but not yet published.

Jeanette Fitzsimons: Can the Minister confirm that New Zealand is a signatory to the Agreement on an International Energy Program of 1974, which requires signatories to develop a rapid demand response to oil shortages; if that is the case, what are the measures in New Zealand’s plan and in what order will they be implemented?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: I will take the member’s word on the timing of the convention. On the response measures in crude oil, we have seen some publicity around that. As far as the details of the response plan go, if the member would like that from me, I am happy to arrange a briefing for her.

Gordon Copeland: Is the Minister aware that the price of oil per barrel would have to reach US$104 to be in real terms where it was in 1979 and 1980; and does he therefore believe that it would be prudent for us to proceed on these matters with a degree of caution rather than a degree of panic, as has sometimes come through in Jeanette Fitzsimons’ questions to him?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: Again, I will take the member’s word as to the cost of living. I think that the Greens are right to put these matters before us, but I do not feel quite the same sense of urgency that they do.

Jeanette Fitzsimons: With reference to that last question, is the Minister aware that Goldman Sachs is predicting a price of over US$100 per barrel shortly and that there has already been a futures trade for US$100 per barrel for June this year?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: I am not aware of the Goldman Sachs predictions. I am aware of the futures trade, and I have my bike out.

Peter Brown: Is the Minister aware that Green members are going around this country talking about peak oil; and does the Minister share New Zealand First’s view that there is a difference between high-priced oil and peak oil, and that it does a great disservice to New Zealand as a whole for party members to go scaremongering around the country, as Greens members have been?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: I think there is agreement that at some stage peak oil will occur. There is no doubt—it is a question of when. We have seen estimates that have gone out to the 2060s on that. There is a consensus amongst some commentators that it will occur in the 2030s, but I do not see any real sign of panic at the pumps at the moment.

Jeanette Fitzsimons: Is the Minister concerned that the report Saving Oil in a Hurry: Measures for Rapid Demand Restraint in Transport states that increased use of public transport can contribute little to saving oil quickly in New Zealand, unlike other countries, because we lack the buses, trains, and ferries that would be needed to expand services urgently; would it not be better to prepare now by building those systems rather than to suffer carless days and rationing, which are the elements in the plan we are signed up to?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: There has been quite a lot of resource headed into the passenger transport area from this Government over the last couple of years, and I thank the member for the work she has done to help that.

Jeanette Fitzsimons: Is the Minister’s Government still committed to article 41 of the Agreement on an International Energy Program, which promises national programmes to reduce dependence on imported oil over the longer term; if so, what are the next steps in New Zealand’s programme to reduce that dependence, given that our oil imports have risen by 53 percent since that agreement was signed?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: I am not sure that the member will entirely like the answer, but we are helping to drill quite a lot more.

Jeanette Fitzsimons: Has the International Energy Agency given any reason for wanting to trigger emergency response actions when oil supply drops by as little as one to two million barrels per day, rather than the seven million barrels per day in the original agreement?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: Not directly to me.

Jeanette Fitzsimons: Did the Minister see the statements in The Economist on Monday that the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries can pump—[Interruption]

Madam SPEAKER: Would members please leave the Chamber if they wish to speak.

Jeanette Fitzsimons: Did the Minister see the statements in The Economist on Monday that OPEC can pump only another 1½ million barrels a day “—before it smacks up against its production ceiling”, and further, that: “… supply and demand would seem to be heading for a showdown.”; if so, does he agree that the International Energy Agency’s hair trigger proposals are driven less by the risk of short-term supply disruptions than by permanent oil depletion?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: Not yet.

[reggieUK]

I'm not sure how the Greenpeace and FOE would respond to this but I would be interested in comments.
...............................................................................................................
As it is pretty much accepted, Climate change/global warming is not helped at all by human activity. That human activity in a nut shell is the use of oil.
We are constantly told by the Greens that if we all switched to solar/wind etc then the planet would breathe a sigh of relief. As we see the extinction of flora and fauna at a Jurassic die off rate, we are told that if humankind, or more correctly humanunkind, were to stop plundering the planet and being so consumerist the Amazon forests would stop getting felled and the seas would thrive again. The reason for the consumer lifestyle and the subsequent destruction of the planet is essentially because of oil.
The world is at war with the situation seemingly set to worsen, all because of oil. China is buying Iran's oil. The US want to take it by force and stop Iran from being able to defend it. We now find that Sudan's Darfur region is rich in oil. The bombing of Afghanistan and the near removal of the Taliban allowed a pipeline to be built. China and Japan are nearly at war over history and the future drilling for oil and gas in the disputed territory of the East China Sea. Then there's Venezuela holding the US to ransom. Al Queda want to stop the oil and the grabbers by bringing down the west and the way to do that is to stop the oil flowing to them and so it goes - all of it is about oil.
It's pretty clear that the world is not going to go eco especially as China et al grow and grow and grow. The Earth as an eco system cannot take too much more.
Energy Conservation may be said to be the planet's and subsequently the human race's death knell. It was a nice idea thirty years ago but nobody took any notice and all energy conservation can do now is to draw out the pain.
The alternative green movement to save the planet would be to buy a bigger gas guzzling car, leave non energy saving lights and computers on. Turn the heat up. Fly as often as possible. Drive everywhere. Bin the sloar panels and the windmills. Bring on the peak oil scenario faster. Crash the machine. It's going to happen at some time in the next 20 years anyway but the Earth may have given up before then.
Why let the Earth suffer that long when a new green movement could bring about the rememdy much quicker?

Gaia

[AdzP]

Heh.
In France they have a phrase for this which is "the catastrophist left." Lefties who say 'bring it on' (eg re-elect Bush we'll get where we're going quicker).

[gg3]

This would be the leftist parallel to the "end-times" religious right extremists.

Both are equally evil in my opinion. One may as well be advocating involuntary euthanasia for everyone over 70 years of age since they're going to die soon (relatively speaking) anyway.

Trying *and* failing, is tragic.

Failing to try, is morally-culpable apathy.

Trying *to* fail, is evil.

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'A') Cosmogonist would reply:

2nd Law of thermodynamics is Entropy.
Entropy = Penalty = Satan / Yin / Shiva______ (fill in the blank, depending on the religion or belief)

You fight, do battle with Entropy using the 1st Law which is Conservation.
Conservation = Christ / Yang / Vishnu or Krishna / ______ (again fill in the blank, depending on your belief)

And if we are not able to find a balance between the Yin and Yang ... the 3rd Law kicks in ... the deep freeze. ENERGY OUR GOD will put us into a deep sleep.

ENERGY = God , leads to solutions, believe it.

Namaste

[BabyPeanut]

http://www.calgarysun.com/perl-bin/nive ... 3.html&a=1

[tokyo_to_motueka]

this is my 500th post.

to celebrate (it's taken a year), below is the 1975 election manifesto of the Values Party of New Zealand.

the Values Party was the world's first "Green" political party to contest national elections, in 1972. Of course, the term "Green Party" had not yet been coined. this was not just an environmental movement, but a social movement.

unfortunately, it doesn't appear that their original 1972 election manifesto, "Blueprint for New Zealand - An Alternative Future" is available anywhere on the net, so i am posting the 1975 manifesto "Beyond Tomorrow".

it is posted at:
http://www.global.greens.org.au/charter ... festo.html

it is said that these documents were influential in shaping the foundation of Germany's Green Party in 1980.
enjoy!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')size=150]Beyond Tomorrow--1975 Values Party Manifesto[/size]



Survival
The Stable-State Society
Infinite growth is impossible. Resources are limited and most of them are not renewable. The development of synthetic substitutes creates problems as well as solving them, and reflects the growth mentality that must be altered if mankind is to survive. Population growth, economic growth and use of resources must be restricted if society is to meet the needs of man. Now is the time to do it, and New Zealand can lead the world in developing a new society, the new set of attitudes necessary to form worthwhile satisfying communities.

Population
There is a maximum number of people which the earth can sustain at reasonable standards of living. Already a large proportion of the world's population is underfed, poorly clothed, and unable to reach its full mental, physical and social potential. The effectiveness of each and every individual, his happiness, and his ability to contribute to society will reduce as population numbers increase. Limiting population growth will enable present resources to be shared equitably around the world - without greatly reducing our present standard of living. Population growth must be reduced if "space-ship earth" is to continue voyaging through space. Education in family planning, contraception and human relationships is needed to achieve this.

A New Economic Recipe
The economic machine is geared to meeting material needs yet it has failed to provide them for many people around the world, and for some in New Zealand. This same machine is also beginning to seriously threaten our natural environment. It is possible to develop an economic system based on co-operation, sharing and conservation, a system which meets our material needs and at the same time promotes the satisfaction of non-material needs such as friendship, play, self-expression, a sense of individual identity, social approval, self esteem, and peace of mind. Values' economic policies are aimed at producing a stable-state economy. Growth must be curbed, and existing wealth redistributed.

Primary Production
A flourishing and vital rural community is essential to New Zealand's future. Our most important economic assets are land, climate and accumulated farming skills. Measures which promote effective. efficient and rational use of land are needed to enable agriculture to cater for the needs of New Zealand, and to help it meet its commitments to the rest of the world. Farm incomes must be guaranteed. Forestry must be encouraged - but not to the extent of destroying an important natural resource, native timber. Fishing has so far been greatly neglected by the government, and deserves further encouragement.

Industrial Relations
Employees are too often not involved in decisions which affect their lives. This is a primary cause of industrial unrest, and workers must be given the right to be involved in management and control of industry. Restructuring of many industrial processes is necessary if people are to achieve job satisfaction. Unions have an important role to play in this area. Retraining schemes, the introduction of job-sharing and more flexible working hours will also greatly reduce industrial strife.

Consumerism
There are pressures on people to keep producing and consuming more. Much advertising creates artificial wants and promotes dissatisfaction - even though New Zealand is a relatively affluent society and the material needs of most people are met. Once basic material requirements have been provided, human needs are distorted by continued emphasis on material consumption. If society were operating sensibly, the more goods we obtained, the fewer we would need. Advertising should be regarded as an information process, rather than a persuasion process. Packaging of goods should be kept to a minimum. Firms should be given incentives to make longer-lived products. Consumer education is needed, and smaller, more personalised shopping centres should be encouraged.

Technology and the Future
Technology can do much to lighten the burden of work many people carry. It can make life easier and more comfortable, and give people more time to pursue leisure. But often, technology has made work meaningless, has replaced the tasks from which people derive satisfaction. Technology, instead of making human hands and brains redundant, should help them become more productive. The ethical, cultural and environmental implications of technological development should be assessed - and technology should be rejected where it does nothing to promote human involvement and awareness.

Environment
There is nothing wrong with man altering his environment. But it must be done carefully, so the alterations do not cause the breakdown of the natural systems on which every living thing depends. Limits to population growth and the development of a stable-state economy are essential if pollution is to be prevented. Products must be recycled as much as possible. The urban environment must be kept on a human scale, because one of the prime causes of social problems is the alienation of people in the places where most of us live - the cities and towns.

Energy
The demand for energy is increasing at an alarming rate. New Zealand is being forced to develop more and more expensive methods of producing electricity, and is misusing its primary energy sources. The development of nuclear power is unacceptable to the Values Party, and there is a limit to hydro-electric and other electric generation potential. Energy consumption must therefore be stabilised. Transport is one of the heaviest users of fuels, and so the economic use of public transport systems must be encouraged.

Justice
Rich World, Poor World
The gap between rich and poor countries is widening, and will never close if the present system of international trade and economic organisation is allowed to continue. The internal policies of our government are based on eliminating poverty and inequality - surely our external policies should have the same set of values? A just world order and a stable world economy is essential if starving millions are to be fed, homeless people housed, and illiterates educated to reach their full potential. Three main kinds of assistance are needed for the underprivileged areas: relief aid, development projects, and help with political, economic and social change. Multinational corporations have too much control in too many foreign countries - including New Zealand.

International Relations
There is a great need for mankind to be united - to become one species on planet earth, rather than a multitude of fragmented and bickering "nations". The United Nations has a major role to play in any attempt to break down international differences. Just as it is essential for New Zealand to develop a stable society, a just, environmentally-sound world order must be developed if mankind is to survive. Control and use of the sea and the sea-bed is one area in which international co-operation could be readily achieved. The Antarctic is another. New Zealand must be independent and non-aligned if it is to give a lead in the new attitude to international relations.

Individual Freedom
Individual freedom must be allowed unless it is clearly outweighed by the interests of the community as a whole. In the matter of abortion, people must have freedom to plan their own families. The Values Party supports free and readily available contraception and sterilisation, as well as freedom of individual conscience. Censorship inhibits the development of responsible adult citizenship, although some censorship may be necessary in the interests of children. There is a need for extensive safeguards to ensure the confidentiality of data collected-on the affairs of individuals. The State should have no role in regulating sexual practices between consenting adults in private. Present drug laws are inconsistent and often make the problem worse - but the Values Party does not advocate the use of drugs in any form. Greater controls are needed on the use of firearms.

Status of Women
New Zealand practises a form of sexual apartheid. Children are taught concepts of masculinity and femininity which encourage boys to be adventurous, curious and rough, girls to be decorative, helpful and clean. There is no reason why both males and females should not share these qualities. Equality for women should not simply enable women to share a man's world on male terms. The status of the traditional female values which stress co-operation, nurturing, healing, cherishing and peace, should be raised, these are the values which are needed if everyone is to survive. Men and women should share work and home environments - there is no reason why both can't be breadwinners, and it is generally desirable for both to spend time bringing up children.

Race Relations
The task ahead is not to assimilate the Maori but to help him foster his racial and cultural identity. There is much in Maori society, particularly the traditional attitudes to land - which could contribute to a stronger, healthier total society - if the pakeha could accept it. The Values Party would encourage the development of urban marae, train police recruits and employers in race relations, and support unions which promote courses for immigrant Polynesian workers.

Crime and Punishment
Prisons isolate inmates from the community, and deprive them not only of freedom but also of their self-respect and humanity. This makes it difficult for released prisoners to readjust to society and increases, rather than decreases, the possibility that they will offend again. If a law-breaker must be imprisoned, the only punishment inflicted by society should be the deprivation of freedom, for this is the most valued of human rights. Emphasis should be placed on rehabilitation and on training offenders to live within the accepted norms of society. Alternatives should be found to prisons, and prisons themselves made as congenial and normal as possible, to reduce unrest and aid rehabilitation. The community should be encouraged to interact with prisons and other penal institutions.

Community
Community, Family, Children
Communities have become too big and families have become too small Because of the sprawling nature of cities and towns, and because of increased family and individual mobility, the formation of small areas with a community of interest is now rare. New Zealand badly needs a set of clearly defined national goals with which the whole community can identify. Government should be decentralised, and people given as much say as possible in running their own affairs - in determining the type of community in which they live. Extended families - of grandparents, parents, children, and perhaps friends and other relatives - should be encouraged. So should other forms of communal living. Children should be under the influence of more than one adult, and child-care centres should be more than mindless baby-minders.

Education
The education system can be used to maintain the present system or to help develop an alternative. At the moment, our education system is not equipping young people with the skills they need to cope with life in a changing world. There is little point in simply updating the system so it caters better for a society that is fundamentally competitive and materialistic. Education should be geared to the development of a just, co-operative, community-based society. A major effort is needed to tackle many of the problems of modern education - there is a need for improved adult education, for greater retraining, and to improve facilities for minority groups. The decision-making process of education must be reformed, to allow for greater power at community and regional levels. There should be greater diversity of educational styles, to allow for individual preferences and differences.

Health
Everyone has a right to health care, when and where it is needed. Need should be the only criterion for receiving care. The health service should be decentralised, so that communities can decide for themselves the type of service they want. But because resources are finite there is a limit to the amount of money that can be spent, so services must be spread as equitably as possible. Prevention is better than cure, and the development of a stable society would do much to prevent many of today's diseases - the diseases of stress and affluence.

Welfare
An objective of all Values' policies is to create a society that has no need for social welfare as it is traditionally understood. A guaranteed minimum income would replace most benefits and superannuation schemes. The caring, cohesive community established once growth rates had been stabilised, would cater for most people's needs. There will nevertheless be a continuing need for the traditional forms of welfare', and "common situation" groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous should be encouraged.

Housing
Shelter is a basic need of mankind. People have a right to warm, dry, comfortable accommodation, at a reasonable price. Yet after many years of effort by successive governments many people live in poor quality housing at too high a price. It is very difficult to buy a house. Part of the problem is that speculators are taking advantage of people's need for housing. Part of it is that some dwellings are under-used. Building cannot keep pace with population growth. There should be tighter controls on speculation. More houses should be built, and money and other assistance made more readily available. Variety in housing, and alternatives in living styles, should be encouraged.

Local Government
Local bodies should be more concerned than they are with the wider needs of the community. Too often, important decisions affecting a local area are left to a distant bureaucracy. Decisions on matters such as housing, health, welfare and education should ail be decentralised. At the same time. there is a need for a reorganisation of local government - regional, district and community councils should be developed. Rates should be abolished in favour of a local income tax.

Government Reform
Only a strong sense of community can counter the massness and alienation of modern western society. More power, more responsibility, and more autonomy must go to regional levels of government. Greater openness is needed in central government, and the public must be more involved in its processes. The present "confrontation" debating system should be reformed, and MPs given greater assistance in their work.

[rockdoc123]

Specop....thought you would especially like this one:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')reenpeace fined for reef damage
From correspondents in Tubbataha Reefs, Philippines
November 01, 2005
GREENPEACE was to be fined after its flagship Rainbow Warrior II damaged a coral reef in the central Philippines during a climate change awareness campaign, marine park rangers said today.

The ship and its crew were assessed a 640,000-peso ($15,000) fine after the 55m motor-assisted schooner ran aground at the Tubbataha Reef Marine Park yesterday, park manager Angelique Songco told AFP.
The ship's bow sliced through a reef formation measuring 160sq m, she said
........................................................Mr Constantino said that Greenpeace divers on the Tubbataha expedition had found that healthy coral and no evidence of bleaching, believed to be caused by warming sea temperatures.

[smiley]

LOL not only for Specop. I nearly laughed my ass off when I read this one.

Too bad their boat didn't sink.

[skateari]

rednecks

[Daculling]

I remember hearing of them running that boat into a whale a while back.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'r')ednecks

[Specop_007]

Saw it a few days ago.

All I can think is some chucklehead liberal at the helm..."I'M the captain of this ship! Now where the hell are we?"

Unfortunately, no matter what the fine it doesnt help the corral. Isnt as if they can rebuild it. All it does is stick a few extra bucks in the governments coffers, or maybe right into some politicians pockets. It disgusts me the lengths they types of people and organizations go to to actually stop progress. Far better to try to learn to coexist with nature while minimizing our impact and maximizing our results.

[arocoun]

How sickeningly typical of both sides. A bunch of liberals so caught up in one or another of its little movements that it can't sense a problem right in front of it. And then, a bunch of liberal haters expressing joy over a liberal screw-up, despite its damage to the world in general.

Untypical, however, is how Specop managed to sound like a mostly-decent human in a thread everyone expected him to be a liberal-bashing ass in. Yay for him.

[elroy]

From what I read elsewhere, they were given the wrong marine maps, the maps showed they were still a mile away of the reef while they ran on top of it. Can't really blame them. Plus they said they'd pay the fine and apologized profusely.

[rockdoc123]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd then, a bunch of liberal haters expressing joy over a liberal screw-up, despite its damage to the world in general.

Untypical, however, is how Specop managed to sound like a mostly-decent human in a thread everyone expected him to be a liberal-bashing ass in. Yay for him.

[lotrfan55345]

Actually, the map was messed up. They were outdated. You should try getting a map from the Phillippine government.