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Why do Americans hate poor people?

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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 20:26:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gt1370a', 'T')his was never about third-world conditions. My point was there are opportunities in America. What you do with them is up to you. If you waste them, then expect the federal government to bail you out, expect resentment.


Amazing, you have a system which depends on poor people for the system to work then blame them for being poor.

I'm amazed that people don't comprehend the idea of a pyramid scheme. There has to be a large number of people at the bottom. Can everyone be a millionaire? Can everyone be middle class?

Sure an individual can make it up, but not everyone, otherwise nobody will pump the gas, serve you your burgers, make you a coffee.

And because of the system, you hate the victims, then proudly go to church on Sunday.


America is full of millionares selling burgers and serving coffee, it's called enturpership. Ever heard of Starbuck's? When was Col.Sanders created Kentucy Fried Chicken he financed it with his social security check. 50 years ago Ray Croc noticed people needed to get their food seved differently thus Mcdonald's. Sam Walton owned a Store in Arkansas and came up with a innovative way of just in time distribution and that's how Ben Franklin stores mophed to Wal-Mart. Regardless of all it's faults this is why America is what is is today based on opportunity, enturpership, and Ingenuity.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 20:31:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'R')egardless of all it's faults this is why America is what is is today based on opportunity, enturpership, and Ingenuity.


But what I am saying you can not ALL do it, only SOME, some people HAVE to be at the bottom otherwise the SYSTEM does not work.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 20:50:58

Let, me add on to that post. Many of the millionares in America are not innovators or CEO's pulling strings on a pyramid. It can be done with the proper mindset or just plain luck.

MINDSET-Check out the book Millionare Next Door by Thomas Stanley.

LUCK- If you ever come to America go to a Hardware store called The Home Depot and see how these simple folk are so knowledgable and run their tails off. Or ask a secretary at Microsoft Employee if they like their job. It's not because of the goverment, the goverment doesnt offer stock options. Stock options come from Capitalism.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 21:14:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'R')egardless of all it's faults this is why America is what is is today based on opportunity, enturpership, and Ingenuity.


But what I am saying you can not ALL do it, only SOME, some people HAVE to be at the bottom otherwise the SYSTEM does not work.


Roger- do not take this the wrong way, I enjoy your posts-but bullshit. In America a School teacher(which can be compared to slavery) could become a millionare in their lifetime. The folks that dont become millionares are the ones who give in to the dark side of out of control consumerism, live above their means, and fail to adapt. Which is my opinion a bigger problem than Peak oil. To me peak oil is something I take serious but instead moaning and bitching I see(not you) I will do some serious adapting.

Again sorry if I am heavy handed, your pespective on a variety of topics has been intellegent and your opinion has value.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 21:14:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'I')t can be done with the proper mindset or just plain luck.


Think of Amway. Can every one be at the top? No, the system works because of the door-sellers at the bottom hoping to get to the top. Most don't. They get disillusioned and drop out, so they keep on needing more people to feed into the system.

It's a pyramid scheme. It's a ponzi scheme. If you don't accept that then it's pointless debating about the people at the bottom, there is no way, even with the correct mindset that everyone can get to the top. The system is geared that way. That's ignoring the globalisation aspect, there is no way on earth that Americans can compete on an equal footing with Asia unless it involves a movement downwards in living standards.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby thuja » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 22:10:15

Got to agree with roger here Prairie- We can't all have millionaires- who's going to sweep the floor at night? Who's going to trim the rose bushes on your estate? Is it because they were all stupid and lazy that they didn't get rich? I'll agree that there is a certain amount of potential built into the system that says if you strive hard for a good education, you can certainly join the middle class and if you're lucky, can get rich, even if you started at the bottom.

But if you started in an environment that doesn't reward you for striving for higher education, where you don't have the right connections or trust fund to jump start you in life, the odds are that much harder. Some will succeed, but most won't. That way, you have someone to serve you a whopper at Burger King...works out perfectly...right?
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby gt1370a » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 22:19:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gt1370a', 'T')his was never about third-world conditions. My point was there are opportunities in America. What you do with them is up to you. If you waste them, then expect the federal government to bail you out, expect resentment.


Amazing, you have a system which depends on poor people for the system to work then blame them for being poor.

I'm amazed that people don't comprehend the idea of a pyramid scheme. There has to be a large number of people at the bottom. Can everyone be a millionaire? Can everyone be middle class?

Sure an individual can make it up, but not everyone, otherwise nobody will pump the gas, serve you your burgers, make you a coffee.

And because of the system, you hate the victims, then proudly go to church on Sunday.


What exactly are they "victims" of? And what does church have to do with anything? Surely you're not generalizing, after you guys chastised me for generalizing about the poor. Gee, I guess you're really not more tolerant or open-minded than somebody like me, you just have different categories.

Ah, I'm just giving you a hard time. I know what you mean about the church thing, lot of hypocrites out there. I'm not a church type myself.

But that "victims" thing.... that's really the central point here, is it? You guys think poor people are just victims of a corrupt system? I think it's basically just a natural outcome. Societies will tend to reward individuals who are productive, and "productive" can have different meanings in different societies. Here it's correlated with intelligence and hard work.
Smart, hard-working people float up in the pyramid, lazy and dumb people sink down. There are other variables in there that make it an imperfect correlation, like accidents and sickness and the lottery, but still the correlation is a pretty good one.

And I suppose if this really IS the main point, then there's not much use debating it. I can't see anybody being persuaded to budge on that one.

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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 22:28:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gt1370a', 'B')ut that "victims" thing.... that's really the central point here, is it? You guys think poor people are just victims of a corrupt system? I think it's basically just a natural outcome. Societies will tend to reward individuals who are productive, and "productive" can have different meanings in different societies.


A capitalist system does not have to be corrupt to still be a pyramid scheme. By corrupt I mean actual white-collar crime or political kick-backs etc. By victims I mean that the system needs poor people to operate and a large number will not be able to get far from the bottom. Where they are really victims is, as the title of this thread posits, that because of their position in the pyramid they are not respected.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby gt1370a » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 22:33:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gt1370a', 'B')ut that "victims" thing.... that's really the central point here, is it? You guys think poor people are just victims of a corrupt system? I think it's basically just a natural outcome. Societies will tend to reward individuals who are productive, and "productive" can have different meanings in different societies.


A capitalist system does not have to be corrupt to still be a pyramid scheme. By corrupt I mean actual white-collar crime or political kick-backs etc. By victims I mean that the system needs poor people to operate and a large number will not be able to get far from the bottom. Where they are really victims is, as the title of this thread posits, that because of their position in the pyramid they are not respected.


But you think it merits respect because, as you validly point out, "somebody has to do it?" Ok, I guess I can't really argue with that. But I don't think it deserves high pay and benefits, and a government bail out every time something goes wrong. And the feeling that people are "entitled" to that is what causes resentment from people like me, who have to pay for it.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 02 Nov 2005, 22:37:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gt1370a', 'A')nd the feeling that people are "entitled" to that is what causes resentment from people like me, who have to pay for it.


Why don't you have the same resentment towards the government and the corporations who meet exactly the same criteria?
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 00:42:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gt1370a', 'T')his was never about third-world conditions. My point was there are opportunities in America. What you do with them is up to you. If you waste them, then expect the federal government to bail you out, expect resentment.


Amazing, you have a system which depends on poor people for the system to work then blame them for being poor.

I'm amazed that people don't comprehend the idea of a pyramid scheme. There has to be a large number of people at the bottom. Can everyone be a millionaire? Can everyone be middle class?

Sure an individual can make it up, but not everyone, otherwise nobody will pump the gas, serve you your burgers, make you a coffee.

And because of the system, you hate the victims, then proudly go to church on Sunday.


America is full of millionares selling burgers and serving coffee, it's called enturpership. Ever heard of Starbuck's? When was Col.Sanders created Kentucy Fried Chicken he financed it with his social security check. 50 years ago Ray Croc noticed people needed to get their food seved differently thus Mcdonald's. Sam Walton owned a Store in Arkansas and came up with a innovative way of just in time distribution and that's how Ben Franklin stores mophed to Wal-Mart. Regardless of all it's faults this is why America is what is is today based on opportunity, enturpership, and Ingenuity.


"Look away, Look away, Look away, Dixieland!" played mournfully on a flute, tear rolling down cheek.

And what about the guy that pioneered the strip mall concept? Sniff. And what about cheeze in a spray can, dippity do, Popeil's pocket fisherman. And ...and.....and....sob, sob--the vegematic? Sob.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 00:50:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 't')his is why America is what is is today based on opportunity, enturpership, and Ingenuity.


It's going to have to be those things because you don't MANUFACTURE anything the world wants anymore.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby Jam1eSc0tland » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 08:38:12

Hi Rogerhb,

Been some posts here lambasting you for how you put your question (using the word hate). I think generally the US shows very little compassion for people less fortunate for themselves. For many reasons people can find themselves in the most unfortunate situations, and although the US is a mainly christian society, there actions (and lack of actions) make it appear to many observers that they do indeed hate poor people.
Some of the comments from posters in this forum have very questionable attitudes towards poor people also (Jack, PenultimateManStanding, UnknownElement, Chocky). I am unsure why they have these attitudes. Maybe they are ignorant or as I suspect, just bigoted.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby Guest » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 09:01:58

I know the original post came from a contributor in New Zealand, but having lived a long time in Australia (same part of the world), I'd say you'd have to go a long way to see hatred of the poor expressed more vehemently, and perniciously, than between the majority of 'Australians' and their indigenous people.

It started with the British classing them as 'fauna' (and therefore non-human); ran on through trying to wipe them out with disease-infested free-clothing; then trying to breed them out of existence by stealing their children; and more recently, by progressively reversing any gains made by their claims to native title, keeping them in a permanent state of cultural despair and financial hardship.

The US - whatever its faults - is neither the sole culprit, or its exemplar.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 12:49:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'I')t can be done with the proper mindset or just plain luck.


Think of Amway. Can every one be at the top? No, the system works because of the door-sellers at the bottom hoping to get to the top. Most don't. They get disillusioned and drop out, so they keep on needing more people to feed into the system.

It's a pyramid scheme. It's a ponzi scheme. If you don't accept that then it's pointless debating about the people at the bottom, there is no way, even with the correct mindset that everyone can get to the top. The system is geared that way. That's ignoring the globalisation aspect, there is no way on earth that Americans can compete on an equal footing with Asia unless it involves a movement downwards in living standards.


Can't make it from the bottom huh? Let me tell you my story- I graduated in Dec 1993 with my business degree into a huge recession in a economically depressed Oklahoma. Work my ass off and graduated in 4 years which even back than was tough to do. My folks offered me a ticket to europe but I asked for 1st months rent and groceries.

I went to work at a Footlocker 2 days after taking my last exam. I only made $14,000 in 1994 and worked 60hrs aweek. I know what it is like to be poor and have no health insurance. After Footlocker I sold Ricoh Copiers for 2 years. I ate beans and spagetti for the next 4 years and socked $5000 from my commisions to buy 4 acres of land in Oklahoma city and rezoned it as commercial property. Sold 1 acre in 1998 and made $20,000 and instead of buying a new car I reinvested on my current house and now have 45% equity on a $130,000 house. I also leased 1 acre to southwestern bell so they could put a cell phone tower and get $1000 a year from that which for the last 4 years has gone to pay down my morgage balance instead of a new car. Now I am using that $1000 a year to invest in cattle because the rise in gas will force people to get their food locally. In the next 5-7 years I will have 50 head of cattle which will create a income of $10,000 a year on top of my current salary, thus I dont have to work so hard at my career and do it without Amway. I have accumulated wealth on my own without a trust fund from parents who are self made millionares.

Are you seeing a pattern? Where was Amway in that equaion? Start at the bottom, work your ass off, take risks, live below your means(I drive a 1996 Honda Accord and have less than $2000 in credit card debt). The harder you work the luckier you get.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 13:03:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'G')ot to agree with roger here Prairie- We can't all have millionaires- who's going to sweep the floor at night? Who's going to trim the rose bushes on your estate? Is it because they were all stupid and lazy that they didn't get rich? I'll agree that there is a certain amount of potential built into the system that says if you strive hard for a good education, you can certainly join the middle class and if you're lucky, can get rich, even if you started at the bottom.

But if you started in an environment that doesn't reward you for striving for higher education, where you don't have the right connections or trust fund to jump start you in life, the odds are that much harder. Some will succeed, but most won't. That way, you have someone to serve you a whopper at Burger King...works out perfectly...right?


Valid points. Come to Texas and walk up to the Mexican trimming the bushes and ask him to change a $100 bill, the wad of cash he pulls out is proof enough. Infact if you look at his beat up truck you will see his name on the side, he is business for himself
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby Jack » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 13:13:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jam1eSc0tland', 'S')ome of the comments from posters in this forum have very questionable attitudes towards poor people also (Jack, PenultimateManStanding, UnknownElement, Chocky). I am unsure why they have these attitudes. Maybe they are ignorant or as I suspect, just bigoted.


Questionable? Goodness gracious, I thought I made my attitude quite clear! 8)

The poor are merely an economic artifact of existing distribution mechanisms. There's no particular point in loving the poor; nor is there any particular reason to hate them. Instead, regard them as a resource to be used.

The good news is that we don't need to worry about peak peasant; there are plenty available. Moreover, the supply is growing.
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 15:35:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'I')t can be done with the proper mindset or just plain luck.


Think of Amway. Can every one be at the top? No, the system works because of the door-sellers at the bottom hoping to get to the top. Most don't. They get disillusioned and drop out, so they keep on needing more people to feed into the system.

It's a pyramid scheme. It's a ponzi scheme. If you don't accept that then it's pointless debating about the people at the bottom, there is no way, even with the correct mindset that everyone can get to the top. The system is geared that way. That's ignoring the globalisation aspect, there is no way on earth that Americans can compete on an equal footing with Asia unless it involves a movement downwards in living standards.


Can't make it from the bottom huh? Let me tell you my story- I graduated in Dec 1993 with my business degree into a huge recession in a economically depressed Oklahoma. Work my ass off and graduated in 4 years which even back than was tough to do. My folks offered me a ticket to europe but I asked for 1st months rent and groceries.

I went to work at a Footlocker 2 days after taking my last exam. I only made $14,000 in 1994 and worked 60hrs aweek. I know what it is like to be poor and have no health insurance. After Footlocker I sold Ricoh Copiers for 2 years. I ate beans and spagetti for the next 4 years and socked $5000 from my commisions to buy 4 acres of land in Oklahoma city and rezoned it as commercial property. Sold 1 acre in 1998 and made $20,000 and instead of buying a new car I reinvested on my current house and now have 45% equity on a $130,000 house. I also leased 1 acre to southwestern bell so they could put a cell phone tower and get $1000 a year from that which for the last 4 years has gone to pay down my morgage balance instead of a new car. Now I am using that $1000 a year to invest in cattle because the rise in gas will force people to get their food locally. In the next 5-7 years I will have 50 head of cattle which will create a income of $10,000 a year on top of my current salary, thus I dont have to work so hard at my career and do it without Amway. I have accumulated wealth on my own without a trust fund from parents who are self made millionares.

Are you seeing a pattern? Where was Amway in that equaion? Start at the bottom, work your ass off, take risks, live below your means(I drive a 1996 Honda Accord and have less than $2000 in credit card debt). The harder you work the luckier you get.


My husband's story parallels your story in some key ways. He was able to semi-retire when he was 45. The difference between his philosophy and your's, is, he understands the hard work and shrewdness part, but he also realizes he had youthful energy, a good brain, and luck on his side. He's very compassionate, to the point that if he recieves bad service in a restaurnat, I've seen him tip higher exclaiming that it will cheer up the waiter, waitress, reasoning that they must find their work depressing.

The "I did it, so can they" line is curiously cruel and inappropriately humble at the same time. It declares to one and all that the very stupidest people should be able to accomplish what you did. What's up with that? It seems like a poorly thought through rationale for contempt.


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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 16:07:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Anonymous', 'I') know the original post came from a contributor in New Zealand, but having lived a long time in Australia (same part of the world), I'd say you'd have to go a long way to see hatred of the poor expressed more vehemently, and perniciously, than between the majority of 'Australians' and their indigenous people.


Ironically New Zealanders compare their relationship with Australia in a similar way to Canadians to Americans.

Just like Canadians hate to be mistaken for Americans, Kiwis hate to be mistaken for Ozzies.

As the saying goes "Migration from NZ to Australia raises the average IQ in both countries".

Treatment of the Australian Aborigines was totally different to the treatment of the Maoris. Tasmania was "ethnically cleansed".
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Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Thu 03 Nov 2005, 17:48:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'I')t can be done with the proper mindset or just plain luck.


Think of Amway. Can every one be at the top? No, the system works because of the door-sellers at the bottom hoping to get to the top. Most don't. They get disillusioned and drop out, so they keep on needing more people to feed into the system.

It's a pyramid scheme. It's a ponzi scheme. If you don't accept that then it's pointless debating about the people at the bottom, there is no way, even with the correct mindset that everyone can get to the top. The system is geared that way. That's ignoring the globalisation aspect, there is no way on earth that Americans can compete on an equal footing with Asia unless it involves a movement downwards in living standards.


Can't make it from the bottom huh? Let me tell you my story- I graduated in Dec 1993 with my business degree into a huge recession in a economically depressed Oklahoma. Work my ass off and graduated in 4 years which even back than was tough to do. My folks offered me a ticket to europe but I asked for 1st months rent and groceries.

I went to work at a Footlocker 2 days after taking my last exam. I only made $14,000 in 1994 and worked 60hrs aweek. I know what it is like to be poor and have no health insurance. After Footlocker I sold Ricoh Copiers for 2 years. I ate beans and spagetti for the next 4 years and socked $5000 from my commisions to buy 4 acres of land in Oklahoma city and rezoned it as commercial property. Sold 1 acre in 1998 and made $20,000 and instead of buying a new car I reinvested on my current house and now have 45% equity on a $130,000 house. I also leased 1 acre to southwestern bell so they could put a cell phone tower and get $1000 a year from that which for the last 4 years has gone to pay down my morgage balance instead of a new car. Now I am using that $1000 a year to invest in cattle because the rise in gas will force people to get their food locally. In the next 5-7 years I will have 50 head of cattle which will create a income of $10,000 a year on top of my current salary, thus I dont have to work so hard at my career and do it without Amway. I have accumulated wealth on my own without a trust fund from parents who are self made millionares.

Are you seeing a pattern? Where was Amway in that equaion? Start at the bottom, work your ass off, take risks, live below your means(I drive a 1996 Honda Accord and have less than $2000 in credit card debt). The harder you work the luckier you get.


My husband's story parallels your story in some key ways. He was able to semi-retire when he was 45. The difference between his philosophy and your's, is, he understands the hard work and shrewdness part, but he also realizes he had youthful energy, a good brain, and luck on his side. He's very compassionate, to the point that if he recieves bad service in a restaurnat, I've seen him tip higher exclaiming that it will cheer up the waiter, waitress, reasoning that they must find their work depressing.

The "I did it, so can they" line is curiously cruel and inappropriately humble at the same time. It declares to one and all that the very stupidest people should be able to accomplish what you did. What's up with that? It seems like a poorly thought through rationale for contempt.


See how effective all of your plans are if life throws you a curve ball.


Your husband and I should go bowling sometime! :lol: I'll bet I could learn from him. Personally I tend to be on the right on some of these subjects but please don't assume I am close minded. We can lear a lot from a left perspective.

For every highlight I mentioned on a previous post I could show a collosal and embarassing failure. I have been weighed, measured and found lacking more than once. When I sold copiers I got 1 sale for every 200 cold calls. Rejection made me mentally tough. You are right, Life is tough not everyone is going to be financially well off. Some folks just have to follow a different path that may be low paying but noble and I can respect that. Other folks are dealt a bad hand in life. What I see to much on these forums are intelligent people who just give up and make excusses, it's to hard. Let's blame Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeild they are the source of my problems. Remember "George Bush doesn't care about Black People" . The 90's were tough on me and I was not included in the Tech boom, Was that Bill Clinton's fault?

The name of the forum is "Why do Americans hate poor people". After listening to how your husband has balanced prosperity with a kind heart, tell me "Why does your husband hate poor people?". I assume he is American, and you know him better than anyone else on this thread. Blanket statements like this are not well thought out, and could be interpreted as cruel. Those comments come from inside and outside of our borders shouldn't complain while our milk and honey dripping from their chin.
If you give a man a fish you will have kept him from hunger for a day. If you teach a man to fish he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
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PrairieMule
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