[aahala]

What you think may be true. I don't know about those aspects.

I thought the big spread between diesel and gasoline that has only recently
appeared was due to the NG situation. There's some large users who
have duel fuel heating capacity between NG and heating oil(diesel), so the price of NG and heating oil tend to move in the same direction.

[NeoPeasant]

Some think that they are preferentially refining more gas at the expense of deisel production to avoid gasoline shortages.

Oil Drum Thread

[cornholio]

I was planning to buy a Volkswagen Diesel Golf this spring (pushing 48mpg highway)... BUT now that diesel is around 3.30/gallon while gasoline is around 2.30/gallon I am not sure what to do. If diesel remains much more expensive the efficiency of diesel is offset by the lower cost of gasoline. Diesel has always been less expensive but this may not remain true if... 1) low sulfer diesel requirements may increase the cost of diesel this year 2) Refineries may try to produce more gasoline at the expense of diesel to keep the more commonly used gasoline prices low 3) Europe will not bail us out by sending diesel (which they use more of) as they have with gasoline : )

?any thoughts about the wisdom of switching to diesel in the US? Thanks...

[seldom_seen]

I don't think the price differential between diesal and gas will last forever.

Gasoline imports have started to drop slightly, it will be interesting to see where this graph is a couple months from now:



Furthermore it was noted in th WSJ that the big oil companies are capping prices at the stations to force out the independents. That won't last forever.

I think Adam Smith's invisible hand is keeping prices in check a bit so as not to completely destroy the economy before the christmas mass orgy of consumerism.

I would buy a diesel myself.

[The_Toecutter]

Get the diesel, and learn to make your own fuel for it. A diesel engine can be run on biodiesel. You don't need the oil companies.

Or you could build an electric car out of an old Geo Metro, Honda Civic, Chevy S10, or some sort of 60s/70s vintage sports car cheaper than the cost of a NEW Volkswagen diesel. Something to keep in mind since the waiting list for the VW diesel will be *long*.

[Starvid]

If you want a car with even better mileage, go for the Volkswagen Lupo. Only problem the car is awfully ugly.




Better then to use the Audi A2 TDI 1.2. It is the same car as the Lupo except prettier and better. And also more expensive.



Both cars use only 3 liters of diesel per 100 kilometers. That is 78,4 mpg. Not bad at all.

If any moderator knows how to shrink the pics, please do. I have no idea how you're supposed to do that.


Mileage converter http://www.eforecourt.com/l_100km_mpg_convert.htm

[cornholio]

Unfortunately the Lupo isn't available in the US... Nothing smaller than the Golf or Beetle is sold here : ( by VW.... I think that smaller cars have sold poorly here in the past... But I think that if they sold the smaller efficient cars today (after we have seen 3.00/gallon gas) they would be going like hotcakes...

I'll hold out and get the diesel, i guess... I cant believe that they would preferentially let diesel run so high when it affects trucking/commerce as much as it does...

I'll look into biodiesel... Also I think I heard coal gassification made diesel but not gasoline? That would be a reason to get a diesel...

Electric would be perfect for most everything I do... It really is a small town. Still, I dont know that I have the expertise to build an electric car myself. I can change my battery and oil, but thats about it : (

[WisJim]

I'd get the diesel, if you have gas stations handy that sell diesel fuel. Ideally that would be a nearby truck stop.

We have a 1982 diesel Rabbit that my father-in-law bought new, that we are refurbishing. He would get upset when his mileage dropped under 50mpg. One of my sons just found a 1982 diesel Rabbit, and a 1985 diesel Golf, so they are now getting new filters, injection timing checked, etc. With 3 of them we can now justify buying more of the tools we need to set the injection timing, change timing belts, etc.

A reminder to anyone with VW Rabbit/Golf diesels: don't neglect to change the timing belt at the recommended mileage, as a broken belt can allow the valves and pistons to attempt to occupy the same space inside the engine, leading to large repair bills or engine replacement.

As others have mentioned, diesel allows you the option of biodiesel or a veggie oil conversion in the future, too.

[oiless]

Diesels run very well on furnace oil. This goes for the older ones I've dealt with, don't know about the heavily emission controlled electronically controlled new cars though...
Used to know a guy that made a very good living pumping out old heating oil tanks, he'd get payed a fortune to pump them out, remove the tanks, and dispose of the oil. He disposed it right into his equipment and diesel trucks. (After separating the water and filtering it of course.)

[Whitecrab]

Despite the very positive energy returns of oil, is it true that gasoline and diesel have a negative EROI (Energy Returned On energy Invested)? If this report is true, then biofuels and electric vehicle schemes with marginal energy yields will still be large improvements, quite worth doing in the medium term (while fossil fuel is expensive but still available). Particularily so if some of the energy inputs can be electricity from renewables, solar heat, or animal energy.

I've only found this one source - any others for or against this conclusion?

Energy Balance/Life Cycle Inventory for Ethanol, Biodiesel and Petroleum Fuels

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Ethanol versus Gasoline
A United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), Economic Research Service Report number 814 titled "Estimating The Net Energy Balance Of Corn Ethanol: An Update " was published in July of 2002. The Conclusion states in part: "Corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy ratio of 1.34; that is, for every Btu dedicated to producing ethanol, there is a 34-percent energy gain." A similar study done in 1995 indicated only a 1.24 energy ratio. The increase is accounted for by an increase in corn yields and greater efficiencies in the ethanol production process. As a result, energy efficiency in the production of ethanol is increasing.

The concept of "input efficiencies for fossil energy sources" was introduced as a component of the study. This was meant to account for the fossil energy used to extract, transport and manufacture the raw material (crude oil) into the final energy product (gasoline). According to the study, gasoline has an energy ratio of 0.805. In other words, for every unit of energy dedicated to the production of gasoline there is a 19.5 percent energy loss.

In summary, the finished liquid fuel energy yield for fossil fuel dedicated to the production of ethanol is 1.34 but only 0.74 for gasoline. In other words the energy yield of ethanol is (1.34/0.74) or 81 percent greater than the comparable yield for gasoline.

Bio-Diesel versus Petroleum Diesel
A similar study was co-sponsored by the United States Department of Energy and the USDA, entitled, "Life Cycle Inventory of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel for Use in an Urban Bus."

The study, published in May 1998, states; "Biodiesel yields 3.2 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil energy consumed in its life cycle." The report continues, "By contrast, Petroleum diesel's life cycle yields only 0.83 units of fuel energy per unit of fossil energy consumed." According to this analysis, the energy yield of biodiesel is (3.2/0.83) 280 percent greater than petroleum diesel fuel.

Summary - Energy Balance/Energy Life Cycle Inventory
$this->bbcode_second_pass_code('', 'Fuel * Energy yield Net Energy (loss) or gain
Gasoline 0.805 (19.5 percent)
Diesel 0.843 (15.7 percent)
Ethanol 1.34 34 percent
Biodiesel 3.20 220 percent ')

* Life cycle yield in liquid fuel Btus for each Btu of fossil fuel energy consumed.

The positive energy ratio displayed by ethanol and biodiesel is accounted for by the contribution of solar energy collected by the crop from which the fuel is made. This energy is considered "renewable" because a new crop is raised each year. Fossil fuels, on the other hand, originate from fossilized plants and animals stored beneath the earth's surface in a process that took millions of years.

Another consideration discussed in the 2002 net energy report relates to the specific demand for liquid fuels and the relative abundance of energy sources used to make these renewable fuels. The report explains, "Only about 17 percent of the energy used to produce ethanol comes from liquid fuels such as gasoline and diesel fuel. For every 1 Btu of liquid fuel used to produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 Btu gain."

[nero]

Of course producing gasoline and diesel from crude requires energy.

[pilferage]

It's not beyond the realm of possibility, especially when considering that because of refining, oil must loose some of it's original energy content and always has a negative energy yield compared to it's crude form. Biofuels are efficiently using some FF input to gain even more energy by way of photosynthesis. Kinda like using FF's in the construction of wind turbines, or building your own hydroelectric system...
However, due to the current methods of BD/ethanol production, I doubt it's scalable. And more importantly, even if it is, I doubt we'll see widespread use... The current suppliers of energy would never let go of this market.

It's up to us, the consumer, to embrace these technologies by any means possible!

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ccording to the study, gasoline has an energy ratio of 0.805. In other words, for every unit of energy dedicated to the production of gasoline there is a 19.5 percent energy loss.

[dooberheim]

The new VW diesels (Pumpe Duse) are a common rail design (without the fuel rail, but sill super high pressuire injection) that require special synthetic oil which is very hard to get. At a dealer your oil changes will run over $100 each time. The oil must be changed at an approved service center or the engine warranty will be voided. Believe me, with the repair record of new VWs, you WANT that warranty.

Perhaps we will see other manufacturers selling small diesels here in the next couple of years. Ford has a diesel Focus that they sell elsewhere that I'd like to look at.

Also, the Union of Concerned Scientists did a study on diesel versus gasoline, and concluded when the costs and enviromental issues were all weighed, that gasoline came out somewhat better. Here's the link

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fu ... lemma.html

DK

[mididoctors]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ccording to the study, gasoline has an energy ratio of 0.805. In other words, for every unit of energy dedicated to the production of gasoline there is a 19.5 percent energy loss.

[aahala]

Of course you have a loss of energy from crude to its refined products.
The trees in your yard have so much energy, but you can't use that
energy unless you expend more, cutting them down for fire wood.

Don't put a lot of faith in ANY of the percentages. The USDA is a stakeholder in the gasoline/ethanol debate, it's not an unbiased source.

[mididoctors]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whitecrab', '
')
Edit: But please, lets not turn this into a biofuel thread. My real interest is, is the energy yield of oil-to-gasoline or oil-to-diesel positive or not?

[Slowpoke]

Union of Concerned Scientists hmm ? That doesn't sound like a "scientifical" name... also, I'd be interested to know who are their sponsors...

What they overlook is the fact that diesel engines don't need (petro)diesel to operate. I know what you'll say, but the energy value of E100 is a lot lower than that of B100.

Also, isn't it true that sulphur in (petro)diesel has the same role lead has in gasoline ? I don't see a great deal many cars running on leaded nowadays...

[cornholio]

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/09 ... panese.php

Hopefully 2006 will be a year that the US market opens up to small efficient imports... It may not be necessary to buy a more expensive diesel to get 50 mpg highway...

[LadyRuby]

I'd love to see more of these small imports, assuming we can get more SUVs off the road since they will make pancakes out of the smaller cars.