[Vexed]

THE WORKING POOR
By Tim Jones

The food line begins to form during the sunrise chill, more than two hours before the metal gates to the Care United Methodist Outreach pantry open.

Hundreds of people like Theresa Ware arrive early because they fear the boxes of food stacked in neat rows will be gone by the time they push their rusty grocery carts to the head of the hours-long line. Ware keeps an eye on her watch because she can't afford to be late for work, not even if the reason is to pick up food.

"This is a have-to case for us. It's humiliating," said Ware, 49, who makes $7.50 an hour working the afternoon shift at a nursing home. This recent visit was one of two food pantry stops she and her unemployed husband, Rocky, make every month.

"We shouldn't have to do this," she said.

Theresa and Rocky Ware toil in the ranks of the working poor, a growing category of millions of Americans who play by the rules of the working world and still can't make ends meet.

Lazy and Stupid People

[gt1370a]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', '
')This puzzle is at the heart of Martin Gilens's compelling book, and his answer can be summed up in a word: race.

[Vexed]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f there's one thing I hate more than poor people, it's people who make everything out to be a race issue. Just kidding. Seriously though, when you think of welfare, what comes to mind? Black people living in a ghetto, or white people living in a trailer park? I'm not sure race has much to do with this...

[gt1370a]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', '
')The more I thought about it the more I realized, if one substituted "black american" for "poor american," in your rant it would have sounded like any number of common rascist diatribes. Try it out. The usual stereotypes are at work.

[rogerhb]

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. In answer to the "who the hell are you to ask such a question, you're not from here" then answer may be perhaps it required an outsider to ask the question.

This is by no means a scientific summary, but from the responses, we hate "the idea of being poor" and the people who are poor are the ones who represent that idea. I won't go into arguments about "poor people choose to be poor" etc.

I'll admit I might have been cheeky in order to get some replies, but there is solid value in some of the ideas here. I, for one, think we're all about to get a lot poorer, so coming to terms with a lower standard of living is all part of the transition.

We've made a big move down here to a smaller, poorer town, and get very strange looks from my peers in the city when I describe what we have done. However I do see a light suddenly turn on in their heads when I say we've reduced our mortgage by a factor of 7.

Perhaps we're all poor until we're debt free.

[Vexed]

GT wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ey man, you're the one with the nauseous feeling. You're the one making a racial issue out of something that is not inherently about race. Just an observation.

[Chaparral]

I used to deal with the poorer demographics when I owned rent controlled apartment buildings. Many (the Latino immigrants) were hardworking and upstanding. A large number (mostly American-born) were barely employable, fat, lazy, whiny and glued to the TV. Some were downright thieving, drug abusing, two-legged pieces of merd. Others just did not seem to have the knack for making smart choices.

I got out of the rent controlled residental and into commercial property and beach properties. The tenants are entepreneurs and at least middle to upper middle class. There is a big difference in the average of their attitudes, work ethic, courtesy etc. I think of it as two bell curves that share a big overlap; nonetheless, I'd rather not deal with the American born "poor" if I can at all avoid it. Dealing with them was a constant exercise in negative reinforcement. It's like repeatedly slamming a door on your fingers. It provides no joy or monetary reward or satisfaction.

[gt1370a]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', 'G')T wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ey man, you're the one with the nauseous feeling. You're the one making a racial issue out of something that is not inherently about race. Just an observation.

[Vexed]

GT wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')eah, I guess it's always easier to dismiss an unpleasant idea as "racist" rather than actually confront it.

[Vexed]

Chapparal
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') used to deal with the poorer demographics when I owned rent controlled apartment buildings. Many (the Latino immigrants) were hardworking and upstanding. A large number (mostly American-born) were barely employable, fat, lazy, whiny and glued to the TV. Some were downright thieving, drug abusing, two-legged pieces of merd. Others just did not seem to have the knack for making smart choices.

I got out of the rent controlled residental and into commercial property and beach properties. The tenants are entepreneurs and at least middle to upper middle class. There is a big difference in the average of their attitudes, work ethic, courtesy etc. I think of it as two bell curves that share a big overlap; nonetheless, I'd rather not deal with the American born "poor" if I can at all avoid it. Dealing with them was a constant exercise in negative reinforcement. It's like repeatedly slamming a door on your fingers. It provides no joy or monetary reward or satisfaction.

[gt1370a]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', '
')I guess its easier to live in a world where everything is either/or. In your world, if folks are poor it is because they are stupid and lazy. You do not offer other thoughts. The poor are stupid and lazy.

I disagree, I know there are many other situations.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'T')he one I find most remarkable is that Americans have been trained like monkeys to hate the poor. There are many arguments why, such as it's the land of opportunity etc.

[gt1370a]

I was thinking about an alternative way of looking at this. Have you guys ever read the book "Freakonomics"? In this book is a true story about a crack dealer with an MBA who runs his crack gang using solid business principles. He finds innovative ways to deal crack; he resolves problems and conflicts effectively. Eventually the drug lords take notice of his hard work and intelligence and he is promoted and makes a 6-figure salary. The less-intelligent, less-motivated dealers never progress beyond street-corner peddling.

At all levels of society, hard work and intelligence are rewarded by success (with some exceptions of course VEXED, but generally this is true even at the crack-gang level). Conversely, those who are lazy and/or stupid never progress. This leads people to make the observation that the poor are that way because of lack of effort and abilities (undesirable traits in any society).

But that is no reason to hate or resent anybody. Where the resentment comes from is, like I said initially, the lack of personal responsibility and sense of entitlement that many have. They believe that they DESERVE a big house and nice cars, without having any concept of what it takes to earn them (maybe this explains why many poor people spend their last dollar on lottery tickets). Through various means, the government transfers wealth from people who earned it to those who "need" it. I think most Americans would support SOME form of these programs due to their social benefits, although it is arguable what form the program should take, but many think the current programs are unfair and don't work. For example, a single mother on welfare gets more money to continue breeding more kids who will grow up to be on welfare themselves. So basically we feel like money we earned and could have put to good use is taken from us unfairly and wasted.

[Vexed]

GT Wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here are always exceptions but they do not make the rule. I don't understand why people think an idea is completely invalid simply because some limited exceptions exist. Why do you think stereotypes are formed? Just completely out of imagination with no basis in reality? Of course there are exceptions but so what?

[gt1370a]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', '
')I will never forget the 10-year-old kid bragging that his dad had been arrested for breaking his mom’s arm. He was so impressed with his dad’s power and his mom’s weakness. Have you ever had to explain to a 10-year-old kid that his dad was wrong for hospitalizing his mother? It is a surreal project.

Breaking the cycle of poverty means acknowledging there is a cycle. All your posts show is that you support that cycle. You are not outside of it. You are a part of it.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gt1370a', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', '
')I guess its easier to live in a world where everything is either/or. In your world, if folks are poor it is because they are stupid and lazy. You do not offer other thoughts. The poor are stupid and lazy.

I disagree, I know there are many other situations.

[actionreplay]

Something I've noticed on a lot of boards.

Sooner or later you get the mud-slinging match where you have a bunch of europeans/antipodeans/canadians on one side and the US on the other. The first lot say "you folks in the US are all big nasty selfish meanies!". The Americans answer back "And you lot are a bunch of socialist big-government whiny-assed liberal scum!".

This does not accomplish anything.

I guess what you have to remember is: if you were to visit Japan or China, the language and cultural differences are obvious. You expect people to act, think and behave differently, as well as organise their society differently, because it's obvious the culture is different and shared values are different.

Because the US, Canada, Australia, the UK and NZ all speak English, the cultural differences are not so obvious. Therefore each side in the argument above assumes you can take their domestic policies and apply them to the other wihtout much hassle. But the cultures are vastly different. And the US itself is a hugely diverse place (BTW did you know there are towns in rural Texas where plattdeutsch is still used in local conversation?). Try comparing the scandinavian agricultural communities depicted in Jane Smiley's "A Thousand Acres" and David Gutterson's "Snow Falling On Cedars" with urban San Francisco, or central NYC... (I _so_ _badly_ want to visit all of the US but it would take me 20 years to do it....)

What living in Europe for 30 years has taught me is that we Europeans like our social programs. We consider them very important. Maybe that's because we're used to them, maybe they are good, bad, indifferent - it's how we think. The European way of thinking is that one is not always in control of one's destiny because Shit Happens (eg WW2) and you can end up in severe financial difficulties.

What speaking to, working with and being related to many Americans, plus various visits to the US, has taught me, is that the US is very different. The view, whether or not you agree with it, is that you go to the US as an immigrant to give it your best shot, work hard, and try and suceed, and don't try and ask the govt for help. You may or may not agree with that. (Incidentally, private charitable giving, as well as deliberately choosing an occupation or job that pays less but does social good appears to be a MUCH MORE prevalent thing in the US. It also used to be the case that immigrant communities were very, very close knit and mutually supportive. Reducing any welfare "need").

It's certainly true that I find that over here in Europe people expect "the govt" to do everything. This means that they can be less motivated to help out folks they know, their local community, extended family etc than, say, my Indian co-workers their families and communities. In some ways this is an unintended negative side=effect of the walfare state. Then again the "govt" IS you - it's the taxpayer, so maybe this is a more efficient way of ensuring no-one "falls through the cracks" so to speak...

I haven't made up my mind yet what is a good economic course of action, as the more I learn, the less I think I know, and the more different ideas come along, get explored, the more interesting, complex and fascinating it all gets... the one thing is that all approaches to the problem have flaws, I guess it's a case of which set of flaws you can most easily live with... (kinda like a Clockwork Orange..)

[Vexed]

GT wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o what am I supposed to take away from this? There are violent people with a culture that glorifies and perpetuates that violence - if I would only welcome them into my neighborhood, give them half my salary, and put their kids in school with my younger siblings, then everything would work out great and the cycle would be broken? Get real man.

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('actionreplay', 'W')hat speaking to, working with and being related to many Americans, plus various visits to the US, has taught me, is that the US is very different. The view, whether or not you agree with it, is that you go to the US as an immigrant to give it your best shot, work hard, and try and suceed, and don't try and ask the govt for help.

[gt1370a]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')So you think this woman is stupid and lazy because she gets food stamps or because she has a job to which she has to commute? You expect her to magically somehow get a job which does not require commuting?

Many people become "poor" when they suffer an illness or injury and lose their job, and can't cover their medical expenses. In what way is it their fault for getting sick or injured?

Most people file for bankruptcy because of illness, injury, or divorce.

In what way are these situations caused by being "stupid and lazy"?