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Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

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Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 14:53:53

Under $10,000 8.03%

$10,000 - $20,000 8.03%

$20,000 - $ 30,000 9.49%

$30,000 - $40,000 9.12%

$40,000 - $50,000 9.49%

$50,000 - $60,000 11.31%

$60,000 - $70,000 5.84%

$70,000 - $80,000 6.93%

$80,000 - $90,000 5.47%

$90,000 - $100,000 7.66%

$100,000 - $150,000 18.61%

Over $150,000 11.68%


Above are the results of a recent poll on this site.

There are several interesting trends in this data. First off, we see an impossible number of $100,000+ income earning households. Less than 5% of American households earn more than $100,000 a year. Considering that there are few nations that can boast a higher standard of living than the United States…it seems strange to see more than 30% of Peak Oilers claming to be a member of the 6-figure club.

Another interesting trend was pointed out my microhydro on the poll itself. There is a deficit of $60,000-$100,000 households. This could either mean a considerable decline in the Middle Class or, as I suspect, it reflects the globalization of www.peakoil.com. With many of our members coming from non-Western nations, the household income is bound to be lower. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the standard of living is lower. As I mentioned on the poll itself, $20,000 a year in India is considered very well off. But this same income is considered near-poverty for someone living in an expensive city like New York or Tokyo. What makes this trend obvious is the fact that a few people choose "Under $10,000" as their household income. This probably qualifies as well off enough for a computer in Eastern Europe but it seems rather unlikely that Americans, Japanese, or Western Europeans could be members of the internet-class on less than $10,000 a year.

Additionally, we must remember that we are looking at an anonymous survey over the internet. People are bound to exaggerate their actual household income or simply flat out lie. :lol: Considering that ANYONE can show up on the site and hit the “Over $150,000” button…it doesn’t surprise me that we see an impossibly high number of them.

The real reason for the ridiculous number of wealthy households probably goes back to the fact that Peak Oil is a trendy internet fad. Most of the working poor and even middle class don’t have time to spend hours searching the internet. Those with higher incomes and possibly more free time are able to find out about things like Peak Oil. But if you are working two jobs at minimum wage to support your toddler because that jerk of a husband left when the going got tough…it’s unlikely that you would be able to sit in front of a computer screen for hours on end to discover an obscure site such as peakoil.com.

What's missing in the survey is a mention of the number of people in a household. Obviously a family of 5 with a household income of $40,000 is not as "well off" as a single person earning $30,000 a year in the same community. But internet polls aren't exactly the CIA factbook...so I'll let that slide.

I dunno, I thought it was interesting. 8)
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Free » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 15:39:03

I find it the most interesting that the extremes seem to be more common than the medium.
Even if this is not a representative survey, it seems to be an indication of a shrinking middle class which either makes it to the top or falls down.

In the "real world" of course the majority of the middle class is rather in danger of becoming poorer than becoming rich.

It's hard for me to believe though that people vote for a much higher income than they have in reality - what's the benefit of this if they stay anonymous? That they show off to themselves? :-D

That reminds me of the joke I still have to tell myself, because I haven't heard it yet...
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 15:41:04

We had a poll? I wanna vote!

I think our household makes over 150k
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby bobcousins » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 17:22:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Additionally, we must remember that we are looking at an anonymous survey over the internet. People are bound to exaggerate their actual household income or simply flat out lie. :lol: Considering that ANYONE can show up on the site and hit the “Over $150,000” button…it doesn’t surprise me that we see an impossibly high number of them.


I hadn't voted yet, but now I won't bother if you are going to accuse me of lying.

Self-selected surveys are notorious for being skewed. Unless you have a method for eliminating demographic bias, I think it is presumptious to accuse people of being dishonest to account for your incompetent surveying methodology.

Also, I resent being told that Americans are simply richer than everyone else. Even if it is true.
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby rogerhb » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 17:31:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'A')lso, I resent being told that Americans are simply richer than everyone else. Even if it is true.


Does that make you a fact-o-phobe?
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Schweinshaxe » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 18:07:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Additionally, we must remember that we are looking at an anonymous survey over the internet. People are bound to exaggerate their actual household income or simply flat out lie. :lol: Considering that ANYONE can show up on the site and hit the “Over $150,000” button…it doesn’t surprise me that we see an impossibly high number of them.


I hadn't voted yet, but now I won't bother if you are going to accuse me of lying.

Self-selected surveys are notorious for being skewed. Unless you have a method for eliminating demographic bias, I think it is presumptious to accuse people of being dishonest to account for your incompetent surveying methodology.

Also, I resent being told that Americans are simply richer than everyone else. Even if it is true.


I make over $70.000 a year but that's just enough for my rent, payments on a used small car, my health insurance, my retirement insurance, my "not able to work" insurance and so on. After I have paid tax, social security fees, "solidarity tax" and unemployment insurance which are mandatory that is.

For this I work around 10 - 12 hours a day since 3 years. I haven't had a single day vacation yet in 2005.

Does that make you happier?
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Vexed » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 19:53:55

Perhaps it would be a more interesting poll, if it asked how much debt people currently are holding - including mortgage, car, student loans, credit card, etc.

It always blows me away how many folks I know who are making super money but still can't seem to get out of the red. Think a $100,000 dollar household is in the money? I know plenty of consumption-happy Americans who would argue with you. One couple I know just bought a $2500 backyard bbq because they "needed it."

Three other thoughts:

1) I own a large retail business and in previous posts I have reported major changes in spending patterns over the last 5 years. The middle class has disappeared. These days, customers are spending $10.00 and asking for discounts, or they are buying $10,000 in merchandise without blinking. Whereas, our operations were once supported by a broad middle class, we are becoming more and more dependent on the big spenders.

2) In terms of the big gap between the haves and have-nots on this site (as the poll seemed to point out), I wonder how much can be attributed to the fact that nearly 2 years ago, PO posters were discussing the coming energy crisis, as if it were already here. And then, as we were still all talking about it, it came. Smart investors (see: rich people) may well have started to pay more attention to this site because so much of what we talked about in the past, seems to be coming true. Perhaps it's just me, or have others seen a surge in "traders" and "investors" on PO as well?

3)Tyler, I thought you were on top of a mountain somewhere miles from an internet connection meditating about the infinite? Revelation wasn't all it was cracked up to be, huh? :-D
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Free » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 19:58:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', '
')I make over $70.000 a year but that's just enough for my rent, payments on a used small car, my health insurance, my retirement insurance, my "not able to work" insurance and so on. After I have paid tax, social security fees, "solidarity tax" and unemployment insurance which are mandatory that is.

For this I work around 10 - 12 hours a day since 3 years. I haven't had a single day vacation yet in 2005.

Does that make you happier?


That's sad. How come? I just can't believe there is no other way for you. How much is remaining after all the taxes? Maybe 50000? 40000? If you work so much anyway it must be easily possible to get through the year with 10-20000 and saving the rest!

I am very poor, after taxes I have about 15000 left. But I only work 40 hours a week (very easy work where I can surf PO.com as long as I want :) ), and that in such a way that I always have 3 days off in a row, which feels like a little holiday.

Sure I don't have a house and a car, just a very small flat (but nice, and in a nice area) and a motorbike, but I live in a nice city with great public transport and everything within walking distance, where I can enjoy life.
And even after buying silly toys I still have enough money left which I don't really know how to spend.

If I was you I would just keep going a couple of years, save enough money, buy a little hut at a beach and surf the waves and the internets for the rest of my life...

Edit: Of course a very important part is that one doesn't have debt - I wouldn't mind not having a single cent, but it would drive me mad to be in debt.
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 21:49:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')3)Tyler, I thought you were on top of a mountain somewhere miles from an internet connection meditating about the infinite?


God willing, God willing...

I'm actually in 4-bedroom cape in New England. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm out in the boonies. :) (the house sits on 13 acres, not bad for suburbia)
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sun 23 Oct 2005, 23:41:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', '
')I make over $70.000 a year but that's just enough for my rent, payments on a used small car, my health insurance, my retirement insurance, my "not able to work" insurance and so on. After I have paid tax, social security fees, "solidarity tax" and unemployment insurance which are mandatory that is.

For this I work around 10 - 12 hours a day since 3 years. I haven't had a single day vacation yet in 2005.

Does that make you happier?


That's sad. How come? I just can't believe there is no other way for you. How much is remaining after all the taxes? Maybe 50000? 40000? If you work so much anyway it must be easily possible to get through the year with 10-20000 and saving the rest!

I am very poor, after taxes I have about 15000 left. But I only work 40 hours a week (very easy work where I can surf PO.com as long as I want :) ), and that in such a way that I always have 3 days off in a row, which feels like a little holiday.

Sure I don't have a house and a car, just a very small flat (but nice, and in a nice area) and a motorbike, but I live in a nice city with great public transport and everything within walking distance, where I can enjoy life.
And even after buying silly toys I still have enough money left which I don't really know how to spend.

If I was you I would just keep going a couple of years, save enough money, buy a little hut at a beach and surf the waves and the internets for the rest of my life...

Edit: Of course a very important part is that one doesn't have debt - I wouldn't mind not having a single cent, but it would drive me mad to be in debt.


Where in Europe do you live?

How much do you get in free government services?

I can earn the American minimum wage ($5.15 an hour) in Poland and be considered well off. But if I were to earn the same wage and live in the suburbs of London...I would probably be on the dole. Cost of living is a very critical factor in this.

How much would your little hut on the beach cost? In the area where I live, a 4-bedroom house on the beach can go for a million+ dollars. Housing is ridiculously priced.

But the same house, if located in a rural town, would go for under $100,000. It's difficult to make a cross comparison of income without looking at factors such as the cost of living.

Regardless, we have a statistically impossibly high number of $100,000+ households. Not even the rich towns of Massachusetts can boast a $100,000 a year household income. And yet 30%+ of this site is under the impression that they fit into that category.

...why do y'all feel the need to lie to yourself on an anonymous survey?
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 01:51:31

Ever hear of "lying"?

You'd be suprised at the number of people who do it when they know they wont get caught.

Course, you also have to consider demographics. 100k in The Valley isnt shit. 100k in Kansas and your a damned king.

Considering the wide variety of people here, it *might* be plausible, but I still am a bit skeptical.

Maybe we should make everyone post a picture of their paycheck stub. That'd settle it. :-D
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby UIUCstudent01 » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 02:19:59

Many people lie to themselves.

It makes you feel good. (Or makes you feel not-bad)

End of story.

It's one of the reasons why internet polls are horrible judgements of things of this nature.

(Or it may be that a large amount of people who spend alot of time on the internet are actually from $100,000+ households... I am.. but then again, I'm special and deserve it... :wink: )

Or maybe we have a bunch of stock traders or something on this site???
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Free » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 03:05:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')I am very poor, after taxes I have about 15000 left. But I only work 40 hours a week (very easy work where I can surf PO.com as long as I want :) ), and that in such a way that I always have 3 days off in a row, which feels like a little holiday.

Sure I don't have a house and a car, just a very small flat (but nice, and in a nice area) and a motorbike, but I live in a nice city with great public transport and everything within walking distance, where I can enjoy life.
And even after buying silly toys I still have enough money left which I don't really know how to spend.

If I was you I would just keep going a couple of years, save enough money, buy a little hut at a beach and surf the waves and the internets for the rest of my life...

Edit: Of course a very important part is that one doesn't have debt - I wouldn't mind not having a single cent, but it would drive me mad to be in debt.


Where in Europe do you live?

How much do you get in free government services?

I can earn the American minimum wage ($5.15 an hour) in Poland and be considered well off. But if I were to earn the same wage and live in the suburbs of London...I would probably be on the dole. Cost of living is a very critical factor in this.

How much would your little hut on the beach cost? In the area where I live, a 4-bedroom house on the beach can go for a million+ dollars. Housing is ridiculously priced.

But the same house, if located in a rural town, would go for under $100,000. It's difficult to make a cross comparison of income without looking at factors such as the cost of living.

Regardless, we have a statistically impossibly high number of $100,000+ households. Not even the rich towns of Massachusetts can boast a $100,000 a year household income. And yet 30%+ of this site is under the impression that they fit into that category.

...why do y'all feel the need to lie to yourself on an anonymous survey?


I live in a city which year after year is under the top three in the overall living quality rankings, and of that three cities, it is the cheapest.

That said, it is a city rather to die in than to live... :-D

Besides, it's the OPEC headquarter city :razz:

No but you are right of course. I could never live in London, and the horror stories (regarding prices) have actually kept me from ever even visiting there. I don't like being ripped off.

I pay a lot of taxes (even with my low income) but I think that's good!
Here is why: My surroundings are clean, safe, and if I need it I get state of the art health service and fantastic public transport.

I don't want to stay here forever though...

My basic principles have always been:
1) No debt
2) low fix costs (rent etc.)
3)Throw money out.

This is why even with a very low income I feel rich, because if I feel like it I spend. One day water, the next day champers - and you don't know what champers tastes like if you don't know the taste of water - and vice versa!
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby pilferage » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 05:11:38

Where's under $5k? Am I the poorest person here? :lol:
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby basil_hayden » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 15:17:25

All I know is that 15 years ago, $55K kept my average household afloat.
Today, $70K does not keep my average household afloat, I figure it needs to be about $85K. So that's up 50% in 15 years. There is no middle class anymore in the US. either you're making $100K per household and surviving or your making less and slipping away.
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby oowolf » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 16:02:20

Anyone else here, especially from the US, self-righteously proud of how LITTLE $ they can live on?
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby nth » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 16:04:55

Hrm... here in San Francisco area, it is very easy for a household to make over $100k. Most people make about 40-60k. Have two people working and you are over $100k.
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 16:29:14

$100,000/household/year in the suburbs of Minneapolis is like average... Most people I know seem to be at or above that.
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 16:47:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('basil_hayden', 'A')ll I know is that 15 years ago, $55K kept my average household afloat.
Today, $70K does not keep my average household afloat, I figure it needs to be about $85K. So that's up 50% in 15 years. There is no middle class anymore in the US. either you're making $100K per household and surviving or your making less and slipping away.


Clearly your last statement is incorrect for the US as a whole.

The average person considers themself "middle class" and yet the average household pulls in less than $45,000 a year.

Only maybe 10% of households fit into your definition of "middle class". Does that mean America is full of poor people with a tiny cadre of moneyed elite? Hardly!

It just means that our definition of a decent standard of living is WAY too high.

How many cars does a household need? How is 4 cars for 3 drivers a reasonable arrangement? What about the morning cup of starbucks, do we really need that?

I suspect that peak oil is mostly middle class city folk that consider themselves poor in comparison to the richer city folk. I also suspect that Peak Oilers live in the most expensive areas in the country because $75,000 should buy you a middle class standard of living. Heck, even my Socialist Congressman defines Middle Class as between $30,000 and $100,000 a year. Under that is poor. $100,000-$200,000 is comfortable, above that is rich. Delahunt represents SE Massachusetts (one of the more pricey areas in the country). But I'll need a poll on socio-geography to test this hypothesis.
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Re: Income Distribution and PeakOil.com

Unread postby EdF » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 17:19:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', 'I') make over $70.000 a year but that's just enough for my rent, payments on a used small car, my health insurance, my retirement insurance, my "not able to work" insurance and so on. After I have paid tax, social security fees, "solidarity tax" and unemployment insurance which are mandatory that is.

For this I work around 10 - 12 hours a day since 3 years. I haven't had a single day vacation yet in 2005.

Does that make you happier?


Probably just goes to show that in the US, those making over $100K (and under $1M) are what's left of the middle class.

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