[lotrfan55345]

HOW does a household survive on $45k a year?

I think our household eats up like $50k just in monthly bills... (like utilities, mortgage, etc)

[nth]

Hrm...

Now, survival on $45k for a family of four is easy.
You buy a small 3 bedroom house for $200,000:
parents live in master bedroom.
each kid gets his/her own room.
If you are in San Francisco area, you will need to move to a trailer home or boat house.
$1,231.00 a month payment on $200k mortgage.
Zero Down Financing on 5 year fix. 30 year loan payment plan.

You have two used cars for $10k. These are cars like Tercel or Camry 10 years old.
$300 a month payment with zero down. 5 year plan.

$100.00 for phone and utilities per month.

$200.00 for gas per month.

$400 for food and stuff per month.

That will cost you:
$2,231 per month

This will allow you about $1-500 in savings per year depending on taxes.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EdF', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', 'I') make over $70.000 a year but that's just enough for my rent, payments on a used small car, my health insurance, my retirement insurance, my "not able to work" insurance and so on. After I have paid tax, social security fees, "solidarity tax" and unemployment insurance which are mandatory that is.

For this I work around 10 - 12 hours a day since 3 years. I haven't had a single day vacation yet in 2005.

Does that make you happier?

[EdF]

Don't be silly, Tyler. Essex County, MA. 350K+ median house cost.

Region matters, no doubt. My point is that the lower bound for "middle class" has gotten pretty high.

- Ed

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nth', 'H')rm...

Now, survival on $45k for a family of four is easy.
You buy a small 3 bedroom house for $200,000:
parents live in master bedroom.
each kid gets his/her own room.
If you are in San Francisco area, you will need to move to a trailer home or boat house.
$1,231.00 a month payment on $200k mortgage.
Zero Down Financing on 5 year fix. 30 year loan payment plan.

You have two used cars for $10k. These are cars like Tercel or Camry 10 years old.
$300 a month payment with zero down. 5 year plan.

$100.00 for phone and utilities per month.

$200.00 for gas per month.

$400 for food and stuff per month.

That will cost you:
$2,231 per month

This will allow you about $1-500 in savings per year depending on taxes.

[fossilnut2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lotrfan55345', 'H')OW does a household survive on $45k a month?

I think our household eats up like $50k just in monthly bills... (like utilities, mortgage, etc)

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EdF', 'D')on't be silly, Tyler. Essex County, MA. 350K+ median house cost.

Region matters, no doubt. My point is that the lower bound for "middle class" has gotten pretty high.

- Ed

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fossilnut2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lotrfan55345', 'H')OW does a household survive on $45k a month?

I think our household eats up like $50k just in monthly bills... (like utilities, mortgage, etc)

[Free]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oowolf', 'A')nyone else here, especially from the US, self-righteously proud of how LITTLE $ they can live on?

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oowolf', 'A')nyone else here, especially from the US, self-righteously proud of how LITTLE $ they can live on?

[Free]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')I proudly buy as little plastic garbage from China as possible.

But I still feel the urge to build up my savings before the crash (and in the mean time, pay for gas...)

Choosing to work less and then complaining about how you don't have the kind of lifestyle you want is pathetic. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Actually you can. I have a cake, then I ate it. Technically didn't I just have a cake and eat it too?

And if I eat it before actually "getting" it, don't I still "have" it as a partially digested mess of flour and frosting in my stomach?

Sorry, bad example.

[nth]

I personally think people consider themselves middle class if they can afford a car and housing and can go on vacation once a year.
They consider poor when they have problems keeping a car running and having to rent a cheap apartment.

I agree if one can live in a house and drive a car, one is not poor.

As for me personally, as long as the real estate price stays the same, I have 200+k in net assets. So by net asset, I am middle class. But by income, I am upper middle class as I am guessing anything over 75k is consider upper.

What is funny in US is that no one thinks they are rich, unless they are making 7 digits.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nth', '
')They consider poor when they have problems keeping a car running and having to rent a cheap apartment.

[strider3700]

I'm not surprised by the distribution. Up here $50,000 is a good well paying job. I have one. If I was to get married and add in my girlfriend we would drop into the 100,000 - 150,000 range. Just barely but we'd be in there.

Most households that I know fall in to either the 40,000 - 60,000 or 90,000 - 120,000 range depending on 1 income or two incomes.

[The_Toecutter]

My household is in the $25,000 range, two income earners(myself and step mom), three people. Definately not middle class, but capable of operating multiple vehicles. Not because we want to, but because public transit is lacking and we NEED them to get around(work and school for me, work for step mom). In other nations, that same income will mean living nicely and eating gourmet meals for dinner, and not eating mac 'n cheese, TV dinners, and pot pies fortified with genetically modified ingredients that are causing an ever greater number of health problems in this nation. Subsisting on such foods is already causing my step mom to get overweight, no matter how much she excersises, but it's what can be afforded. $20,000-$30,000 in America will get you some luxuries like internet and television, but it will not get you anything but marginal healthcare, no college(I have scholarships, but I'm still paying loans too. $28k/year is an expensive university. Without the scholarships, I'd not be in school as more benefit would be had from working to improve things around the house), and you won't have anything left over to save. Cut the cable TV and internet and you free up about $30/month, which won't get anything meaningful. There's just enough to pay the utilities, with keeping the lights off unless someone is using them, no AC in the summer, keeping the thermostat at 58 degrees now that it's cold out, only bathing every 2 or 3 days to save water. This will buy clothes from the Salvation Army. Getting heating this winter will be difficult as the temperature drops.

Since I'm a college student, my step mom does have no problem with me keeping about $60/month of my income for myself, despite my dad not being able to work and money being tight. I have been buying textbooks for college with it(and borrowing others), and now that the semester is half over I finally have what I need. Further money will go into my car again, of which I've wanted to convert to battery electric. With heating this winter, I may have to divert this money into heating the house instead of having any for myself. So the car is likely to keep sitting. A shame, since it would cost considerably less to run than a gas car when it becomes electric.

We don't use credit cards, so there won't be any Christmas gifts this year, except maybe a pack of soda and some cookies from my step mom, I might get her some peanuts, and I might get my dad a book.

This is a household of three living on $25,000 a year. I will make around $2,500 a year working 9 hours a week by the time I've had this job for a year. It took me 6 months to even find that job thanks to a professor at my university, as there are few jobs in my city. Still looking for a 25+ hour/week part time job, and been looking for months, with no luck. Many ads in the classifieds tend to already be taken by the time I inquire. Most, believe it or not, aren't there to find employees...

$20,000-30,000 a year is hardly middle class. It's hard to imagine a household of three or larger living on less in any urban setting, but I've seen such people and even done volunteer work for them. What is wealthy in other nations won't get you shit in America.

In America, middle class is at least $40,000/year for rural areas, $60,000 and up for urban areas.

When my dad was able to work last year, our household made about $80k/year, and we weren't living extremely well, but we ate better than we do now, kept the house comfortable, could afford to eat out every week, could save about $5k/year, could repair the house we live in, could go to the movies every once in a while or out to a bar on rare occassions, buy snacks and such from the grocery store, and I didn't need any loans to pay what my scholarships didn't. The neighborhood we live in is near an airport and has houses valued in the $30,000-50,000 region, and is fairly moderate in crime relative to the rest of the city. The ghetto starts about 2 blocks down. THAT was middle class. Not upper middle, either, as we don't live in a fancy neighborhood and we still drove $3,000 used cars(Well, my dad did eventually get his $500/month toy, a 2001 Audi TT, but he got rid of it after he lost his job). It wasn't living extremely well, but it did keep everyone comfortable and provided for our needs without sacrificing the qaulity of how those needs were provided with some spare money left over for wants.

My sociology textbook from freshmen year of college defined the class ladder for the United States as follows, divided into 6 categories:

Social Class: Capitalist
Education: Prestigous University
Occupation: Investors and Hiers, a few top executives
Income: $500,000+
Percentage of Population: < 1%

Social Class: Upper Middle
Education: College or university, often with postgraduate study
Occupation: Professionals and upper managers
Income: $100,000+
Percentage of Population: 15%

Social Class: Lower Middle
Education: High school or college; often apprenticeship
Occupation: Semiprofessionals and lower managers, craftspeople, foremen
Income: About $50,000
Percentage of Population: 34%

Social Class: Working Class
Education: High School
Occupation: Factory workers, clerical workers, low-paid retail sales, and craftspeople
Income: About $30,000
Percentage of Population: 30%

Social Class: Working Poor
Education: Some high school
Occupation: Laborers, serviceworkers, low-paid salespeople
Income: About $16,000
Percentage of Population: 16%

Social Class: Underclass
Education: Some high school
Occupation: Unemployed and part-time, recieving TANF
Income: Under $10,000
Percentage of Population: 4%

These aren't hard and fast rules by no means, and exceptions are quite common. But given the above criteria, you could pinpoint yourself within one or two classes. My dad used to be a registered nurse, made about $60k. He obviously has a degree, but from a state school. My step mom, being black and female, is underpaid, but makes about $20k/year as a phlebotomist working SIXTY hours a week(About $7/hour + benefits. Try getting healthcare from the insurance provider though. *laughs*). The national average for this position is $24,601 working 40 hours/week. She trained for this position back in the early 1980s, so basically apprenticeship and hasn't had a raise since the 1990s.

When my dad was working, we were basically between upper middle and lower middle class. Solidly middle class. Now that my dad isn't working? Working class.


America is a very expensive place to live. In India, $15k/year might give you the standard of living $100k/year in America would. You can get a haircut for $.25 there, and buy a meal for about the same price. It would be a hell of a lot better than pot pies and macaraoni and cheese! In America, $15k/year might get you a beat up car for $1,500 that may not even run a year after purchase. $1,500 in India would get you a much better car(although you may not be able to fuel it, not that you'd need it anyway). $15k/year in India gets you connected to the internet and cable television, gets you healthcare AND college education, gets you your own home, keeps you comfortable, and allows you to eat out. In America, that same $15k/year basically gets you a roach-infested apartment in the ghetto, and you choose between heating the house or eating very unhealthy types of food that will cause further medical problems, and not having any healthcare or college; cable television may be budgeted into income at the sacrifice of some necessities depending on the values of the household, or even financed with outright debt(Even things that are needed like food might be financed with debt). India by no means has it good, as a good portion of their population is literally living in shacks and making pennies per hour manufacturing cheap goods, where luxury there may be having a pair of shoes to wear or a bike to ride. This was used to illustrate a point.

Trying to compare incomes as a means to divide the population into socio-economic classes and using that same standard for comparing living standard vs. income for differing nations is not a valid comparision. Due to differences in prices, value of labor, varying costs of goods from nation to nation, an income of poverty in the U.S. will give you a very good standard of living in a third or second world nation. An income of near poverty in the U.S.(working class), of which you can have some nice things, would make you absolutely wealthy in other nations and get you a great standard of living(so long as you avoid the corporate chains and overpriced tourist traps).

[Tyler_JC]

Free, I did not mean put you in the "whiner" category.

Because you definitely are not one of the whiners.

Sorry for the mix-up.

[lotrfan55345]

This is the "area" I live in... what an embarrassment:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Deephaven, MN

The racial makeup of the city is <b>97.35% White</b>, 0.29% African American, 0.34% Native American, 0.70% Asian, 0.05% Pacific Islander, 0.29% from other races, and 0.99% from two or more races. 0.91% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race.

There are 1,373 households out of which 42.4% have children under the age of 18 living with them, 71.7% are married couples living together, 5.9% have a female householder with no husband present, and 20.0% are non-families. 16.6% of all households are made up of individuals and 6.3% have someone living alone who is 65 years of age or older. The average household size is 2.79 and the average family size is 3.16.

In the city the population is spread out with 30.5% under the age of 18, 3.7% from 18 to 24, 25.2% from 25 to 44, 29.8% from 45 to 64, and 10.8% who are 65 years of age or older. The median age is 40 years. For every 100 females there are 97.6 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there are 94.4 males.

The median income for a household in the city is $101,278, and the median income for a family is $107,422. Males have a median income of $71,181 versus $42,297 for females. The per capita income for the city is $58,544. 2.6% of the population and 1.0% of families are below the poverty line. Out of the total population, 2.8% of those under the age of 18 and 3.8% of those 65 and older are living below the poverty line.

[Free]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'F')ree, I did not mean put you in the "whiner" category.

Because you definitely are not one of the whiners.

Sorry for the mix-up.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s it really that big a stigma, a taboo to be poor in the US?

[Free]

Thanks for this very knowledgable response, Toecutter.

Interesting about the welfare-queen - because there is increasingly pressure here on cutting benefits, and the MSM increasingly propagate this image of welfare queens, driving around in there Benz cashing in welfare checks.
The sad thing is, such cases do exist. For example there was the big story of "Florida-Rolf" in Germany, a guy who was jobless, lived in Florida quite well, and had his welfare-checks sent to him...

Also there are many people who cheat the state and cashing in welfare even if they don't have the right to do so, which I find despicable, but sadly enough it is seen as ok in big parts of the populace.
Everybody sees the state as the enemy which only cashes in taxes, so they sort of see it ok to "steal back" from the state, which is very dumb.

But on the other hand, the majority of people who get welfare really need it, particularly women with children.

And thanks to social welfare and quite equal distribution, such huge class rifts don't exist like in the US - it's basically all middle class, and you mostly can't tell if somebody is richer or poorer when you meet people. Look at Schröder, the German chancellor, who lives in a small crappy house among his fellow citizens - this quite shocked some international visitors, for example Putin.
It's more cultural differences, education, background, that determine whom you meet - although this of course goes hand in hand with wealth quite often.
And it's a big No-No to talk about your income, it is seen as vulgar....

So it's a difficult balance between not letting the differences getting too big to cause a social abyss, and on the other hand not letting people abuse the system and leech on it...