[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jenab', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'I')t's ironic that we're discussing harvesting resources from halfway across the solar system rather than learning to use the resources we already have more efficiently and responsibly.

[Jenab]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DigitalCubano', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'T')his thread is fun. It's like watching an episode of Star Trek written by Himmler.

[Jenab]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'T')he aristocratic system of government was never really abandoned. The moronic sheeple just believed that they can be the aristocrats while everyone else became the slaves. Top down idiocy, IMHO. Since you seem to know so much about your preferred form of government would you care to translate and understand the phrase 'Quis custiodet ipsos custiodes?.

[Jenab]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jenab', 'N')o, don't. Not literally anyway. People should not breed more than they can support by their own labor.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

I could say one thing, the jd wacko's could say in debunkment of methane on gobal warming "titan has an atmosphere full of methane and that planet is still in a iceage, see methane and co2 don't cause global warming." add a little quote too from jd "screw the earth, lets suck and use the worlds resources dry".

[Omnitir]

Isn’t calculating something like this based on modern-day technology redundant? Assuming a project like this could ever happen, it would be many years from now, using technology not currently developed, or maybe even conceived.

Since it’s a hypothetical question anyway, let’s assume that this venture was happening several decades from now, by the few remaining wealthy people post peak (or we can even assume that PO has been solved). The technology of the day could make it possible.

Carbon Nanofibers could make space elevators possible considerably reducing the problems with transferring between planets/moons and space. And would such a venture really be attempted with chemical rockets? Isn’t that a bit like trying to drive across America in a super powerful drag racer instead of a small fuel-efficient car? Surely specialised engines, such as ion engines, or solar sails, would be much more practical? Gradually slowing down on the approach to Earth with a massive nanofibre solar parachute could be possible.

If we are going to think outside the box with things like harvesting resources from space, we must also think outside the box with the technologies we would use.

And for those who can’t see the practicalities of this – consider the distant future. This sort of thing may be hopelessly late to have any affect at all on peak oil. But it’s comforting to think that one day human kind will find a way to continue on – preferable with a healthier outlook then our current one.

Harvesting resources from space may one day be the only possible option for humanity.

I often wonder about people’s perceptions of the universe when I hear the phrase “infinite growth is impossible in a finite world”. Look at the sky – there’s nothing finite about our universe.

[Jenab]

I have found a mistake in my thinking. I've been assuming that the reaction mass used to accelerate the rocket is massless. In fact, a major difficulty in using rockets is the necessity of carrying along the so-far unspent fuel. I believe that would slam the door on any possibility of using Titan's hydrocarbons on Earth.

However...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jenab', 'F')eeding 100 million people for one year requires 3.058E+18 Joules of energy to be used in growing and transporting food. That's enough energy to boost 4.393E+10 kilograms of mass (about equal to the mass of 600 aircraft carriers) from Earth's surface to escape speed. If intelligently used, that single year's worth of energy, diverted from feeding the hungry to space colonization, could establish a colony in any orbit or on any terrestrial planet in the solar system.

[Jenab]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'H')arvesting resources from space may one day be the only possible option for humanity. I often wonder about people’s perceptions of the universe when I hear the phrase “infinite growth is impossible in a finite world”. Look at the sky – there’s nothing finite about our universe.

[Macsporan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'T')his thread is fun. It's like watching an episode of Star Trek written by Himmler.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

I aggree with that, I am not a luddite and I doubt no one on this board is either. There is no reason why we can not conserve our resourses and have 1/2 of the worlds population researching new useful technologies. Unfortuantly, most of our talent is wasted teaching and training people in marketing, sales, entertainment just to keep consumers preoccupied spending on new cars, gadgets, movies, games and homes. Really right now is the time to go slow and dedicate massive abouts of research, but unfortuantly funding is drying up and all effort is being used to maintain questionable standards of living. If we ever make it to space and are able to begin manufactoring and extracting resources from their, I have no problem with people living as excessivly as possible but to make it into space we must conserve and begin massive research. We can not expect to live exessively and spend little on researching a way to obtain resources from space (I mean power generation, food production, manufactoring all from space so it does not risk our environment). If we do that we will be fine and we will then have the entire universe to expand to, but assuming that we can continue to expand without investing in the intellectual resources to create a boat to bring in new resources or move excess populations off to another land is very stupid, we will expend all resources and starve if not done so.

[Licho]

Diverting resources from military to r&d and all energy from personal cars to space program would suffice without reducing life standard! And you would end in a better world after few years..
US consumes 50% of gasoline/diesel fuel produced on the planet (yes about 25% of oil, but about 50% of oil based liquid fuels), that money/energy could bring up tens of nuclear plants every year or cover deserts with solar pannels..

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jenab', '
')I've been assuming that the reaction mass used to accelerate the rocket is massless. In fact, a major difficulty in using rockets is the necessity of carrying along the so-far unspent fuel. I believe that would slam the door on any possibility of using Titan's hydrocarbons on Earth.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jenab', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')Harvesting resources from space may one day be the only possible option for humanity. I often wonder about people’s perceptions of the universe when I hear the phrase “infinite growth is impossible in a finite world”. Look at the sky – there’s nothing finite about our universe.

[sicophiliac]

Ok let me thank the poster for all the elaborate math ect.. come on though common sense would tell us this is impractical. If we had the technology to reach saturns moon and set up a hydrocarbon recovery infastructure there be it with humans or with robots or something I dont think wed have to worry about peak oil anymore. Lets not forget economics... this would cost trillions of dollars. A manned mission to Mars would be somewhere like 100-200 billion dollars I believe. Titan is much farther and this wouldnt be a one stop 2 month trip. This would be a permanent establishment/shipping station or colony.

[Omnitir]

That’s only logical. It would be much more practical to look at mining asteroids and comets for their valuable resources, then a distant moon of Saturn. How would the calculations for sending robotics to a near Earth asteroid and nudging it into Earth orbit look? That would have to be possible, wouldn’t it?

It would sure be nice to have several trillion dollars worth of combustibles turn up in Earth orbit a few years from now.

[ozonehole]

Just because Cassini invaded Titan during Bush's term in office does not mean that the mission was all about oil!

We want to bring freedom and democracy to the poor oppressed people on Titan. Of course, no one said it would be easy, with three ethnic groups on the moon and Titanic fundamentalism running rampant. But if we want to spread freedom throughout the solar system, it's a small price to pay.

[Licho]

Distance is almost completely irrelevant for robotic mission. There is almost no difference between getting to asteroids or Mars and getting to Saturn..
Most important difference is lack of sunshine at distant places and need for nuclear based energy sources, but otherwise, it doesnt matter..

Nudging an asteroid, changing it's orbit is nearly impossible for today's technology. It would far exceed energy spedning we are capable off in space. Even several nuclear detonation wouldn't move with 2km asteroid!

[Omnitir]

The theory is to land an advanced robotic system on an asteroid, which sets to work processing a comparatively small amount of the asteroids resources to be used as propellant. When enough fuel has been built up, the system begins to fire the propellant at the appropriate time, essentially turning the asteroid into a giant spacecraft. Slowly but surely the asteroid would be steered into Earth orbit.

The theory is sound. There is no physical law that makes it impossible; it just requires the appropriate technology – which is currently well within our means to produce. A project like this would be expensive upfront, but completely within the realms of possibility. Though it’s perhaps not worth doing until we have a cheap system of getting into Earth orbit so that we can make use of all those resources when they arrive. Asteroid capture could probably not happen until the first space elevator is built.

I think the strongest case for attempting such a project isn’t the incredible return on investment (both energy and financial investment) if successful, but rather the skills and technology it would give us. At some point in the future, when we inevitably luck out and find ourselves on a collision course with an large asteroid (a guaranteed event in our future), would you rather belong to a civilisation that has experience with asteroid capturing technology, or the civilisation huddled in the dark, so conscious about conservation that they are not even aware of their impending destruction?

[Jenab]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sicophiliac', 'O')k let me thank the poster for all the elaborate math ect.. come on though common sense would tell us this is impractical. If we had the technology to reach saturns moon and set up a hydrocarbon recovery infastructure there be it with humans or with robots or something I dont think wed have to worry about peak oil anymore. Lets not forget economics... this would cost trillions of dollars. A manned mission to Mars would be somewhere like 100-200 billion dollars I believe. Titan is much farther and this wouldnt be a one stop 2 month trip. This would be a permanent establishment/shipping station or colony.

[Jenab]

By the way, many months ago I worked out the transfer orbit math and posted it here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread ... ge=1&pp=15

If that link isn't working, here's another:

http://prussianblue.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=37

By following the steps, you can learn how to fly a spaceship too.

Jerry Abbott