[k_semler]

"PARIS Jan 21, 2005 — Saturn's largest moon apparently is lashed regularly by rain made of liquid methane, forming pools, cutting river beds and eroding rocks in much the same way that forces have shaped the Earth, scientists said Friday.

The European Space Agency's probe that landed on Titan's frozen surface a week ago put Europe's stamp on the distant reaches of the solar system with its discoveries of a mysterious, methane-rich globe.

"We've got a flammable world, and it's quite extraordinary," said Toby Owen, a scientist from Honolulu's Institute for Astronomy who was charged with studying the moon's atmosphere. "

The Rest Of The Story

[Jack]

So, as another poster pointed out, the energy problem is solved. All we have to do is send big tanker-ships there, load them up, and bring them back here. Simple!

[k_semler]

LOL

Maybe if we had warp drive and could be there in 15 miniutes, but t hen the problems would be solved anyhow. I just thought it was interesting that water is a mineral there due to the extremely low temperatures, while methane has as much influence on its surface as water does on earth. Maybe there is a form of life that can live on methane?

[0mar]

There are groups of bacteria that can metabolize methane on Earth. THere are also bacteria that can produce methane as a waste product. So lifeforms based on methane could be possible, although I think it is a bit far-fetched.

[frankthetank]

I'm still stuck on the "giant slingshot theory" we just build a very large elastic band (heavy duty) and couple of Eiffel towers ... pull it back with a train (?) and launch a golf ball shaped (aerodynamics) to Titan...

??? getting back is tricky...but maybe we could "sling" parts to Titan to build a return ship...

its late...

[nero]

In terms of life on Titan, I think, we can easily identify the key ingredient that is missing: ENERGY.

[Madpaddy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.') Maybe there is a form of life that can live on methane?

[gg3]

Madpaddy, sounds like you were living on baked beans (aka "whistleberries") and the methane is a byproduct:-)

Re. Titan: Energy sources include heat generated by friction in the planet's crust due to deformation under the influence of Saturn's gravity, and possibly residual heat from the formation of the satellite.

I'm betting there are bacteria there. Not on the surface, but maybe a few hundred feet down, and at the bottoms of those bodies of liquid methane. It will be an enormous revelation to see if they have DNA as Earth organisms do, and if there are any similarities with the DNA of Earth bacteria. If we ever get the chance to send a mission equipped with robotic samplers that can manage the task.

That would be one of the saddest cuts from PO. The risk of losing the chance to look God in the eye through the lens of life elsewhere.

[Madpaddy]

Don't get pedantic on me gg

[Rod_Cloutier]

No this thread was not just a wind up. I'm still adamant and serious about space resources.

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Repent', '[')u]No this thread was not just a wind up. I'm still adamant and serious about space resources.

[Rod_Cloutier]

Anyone out there want to add any additional thoughts on this issue now that 2005 is proving to be the "peak" year for oil??

With total exhaustion of earth's oil occuring in the years somewhere between 2040-2075- now is the time to begin serious discussions about acquiring these resources elsewhere in space.

(And no I don't think this forum post should be allowed to die on the Nth page of the off topics forum) !!!

[clv101]

Or maybe we should work on maintaining a reasonable way of life without so much reliance on oil?

[arretium]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Repent', 'A')nyone out there want to add any additional thoughts on this issue now that 2005 is proving to be the "peak" year for oil??

With total exhaustion of earth's oil occuring in the years somewhere between 2040-2075- now is the time to begin serious discussions about acquiring these resources elsewhere in space.

(And no I don't think this forum post should be allowed to die on the Nth page of the off topics forum) !!!

[ArimoDave]

Repent:

I suggest that you Google "Cassini Huygens."

Note:

1. How long the trip took.

2. How the ship was / is powered.

3. Hazards of the power source (i.e. the risk of crashing into the earth after its slingshot around the sun
or blowing up on the launch pad) There isn't really enough solar power available much beyond Mars,
so don't try that argument.

4. How much fuel it took to get off the earth.

5. Estimate how much more fuel it would take to get off the earth while carrying enough fuel to land
and take off from -- say -- Titan with a load of Methane. Don't forget to inclued the additional mass
of the methane tank.

Without some method, like being able to interupt gravity (which may be impossible), space travel will be
too expensive in energy terms to be worthwhile for mining of energy.

ArimoDave

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arretium', '
')
Not to mention... You've got to travel through the asteroid belt. It's not Empire Strikes Back thick, but there's still a good chance of hitting something in there. You've got to escape Jupiter's gravity.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Repent', 'A')nyone out there want to add any additional thoughts on this issue now that 2005 is proving to be the "peak" year for oil??

With total exhaustion of earth's oil occuring in the years somewhere between 2040-2075- now is the time to begin serious discussions about acquiring these resources elsewhere in space.

[clv101]

I still think the number of US manned space flights remaining will be able to be counted on one, maybe two hands... I don't think the patched up shuttle is going to make many more flights.

[Jenab]

Titan is Saturn's largest moon. Its atmosphere is a mixture of nitrogen, argon and methane. Its surface is partially covered with complex organic liquids, probably including hydrocarbons that would be very burnable in an oxidizing atmosphere. The composition of those oceans might not be quite the same as that of our light, sweet crude oil, but they probably contain a roughly commensurate concentration of chemical energy.

But as far as using Titan's resources to benefit people on Earth goes, forget it. I'll explain why in a minute.

Titan's diameter is 3200 miles, meaning it's radius is 2,575,000 meters. It's surface area is 83.32 trillion square meters. If only one percent of Titan is covered by petroleum (or a similarly usable equivalent hydrocarbon) to a depth of only one meter, the volume of the stuff would be 833.2 billion cubic meters. There are 6.29 barrels (of oil) in a cubic meter, so 833.2 billion cubic meters is the same as 5.24 trillion barrels. That's between two and three times the amount of oil believed to have been in the Earth's crust before humans started pumping it out in the year 1859.

I'm going to assume that the mass density and the chemical energy density of Titan's hydrocarbons is the same as crude oil, 887 kilograms per cubic meter and 3.85E+10 Joules per cubic meter, respectively.

Titan's escape speed from surface is 2.64 km/sec. Boosting a cubic meter of hydrocarbon stuff from Titan's surface to free orbit around Saturn would require 3.09E+9 Joules (a bit more when you consider the mass of the cargo vessel). That's only 8% as much energy as is contained in the fuel. Further, boosting the hydrocarbons into low Titan orbit would cost only half as much energy, or only 4% of what the hydrocarbons contain. Power can be transmitted across considerable distances by maser.(1) Obviously, Titan could supply a human colony in the Saturn system with energy for centuries - if there were such a colony. What a pity there isn't.(2)

(1. Unfortunately, maser beams do spread, and it isn't possible to transmit power that way across interplanetary distances. )

(2. "Feeding the hungry" has apparently cost us the chance to create something of enduring worth beyond the confines of our planet. And it may be a chance lost to us forever.)

Now I'll explain why Titan's hydrocarbon seas won't help people on Earth. As you might expect, there's a thermodynamic problem: it costs more to transfer the cargo than can be recovered by burning the cargo.

The boost off Titan isn't a problem. The boost away from Saturn, provided that it is done with (not against) Titan's own orbital motion, isn't a problem either. Saturn's escape speed from Titan's orbital distance is 7.88 km/sec. Titan's orbital motion provides 5.58 km/sec of this speed, meaning that another boost of 2.3 km/sec will be required, which will cost 2.35E+9 Joules of energy. That's another 6.1% as much energy as I've assumed is contained in the cargo.

We're off Titan and clear of Saturn's gravity. It's possible that another 2.44 km/sec will be needed for insertion into the transfer orbit to Earth. Actually, it might be less than this if the boost away from Saturn is properly timed, but I'll be a pessimist. That's another 2.53E+9 Joules, or another 6.6% of the energy in the cargo.

So far, we've used up only 20.7% of the energy. An energy profit of almost four-fifths isn't bad. However, there's a nasty surprise ahead.

At the Earth end of the intended trajectory, the cargo vessel will be moving at 40 km/sec, relative to the sun. But we can aim the cargo vessel so that it reaches a rendezvous with Earth at a time when Earth's motion around the sun can be subtracted from the speed of the cargo vessel. Earth's average orbital speed is 29.8 km/sec, meaning that the cargo vessel will approach Earth, initially, at 10.1 km/sec.

That's the problem, or part of it. 10.1 km/sec is still mighty fast. If we try to slow down the cargo vessel with rockets, we'll end up using about three times as much energy as is contained in the oil - for that maneuver alone.

There's a clever astrophysicist's trick that can be played here. We can anticipate that we will rendezvous with Earth in low Earth orbit and expect to subtract from the incoming cargo vessel more kinetic energy (corresponding to the orbital speed in LEO) than it will gain by falling down the Earth's gravity well. But although this helps, it doesn't help enough. The cargo vessel will arrive in LEO moving at 15.1 km/sec, which is 7.3 km/sec too fast to remain in LEO. That 7.3 km/sec would need to be shed somehow, and shedding it with rockets would use up about 1.5 times more energy than the cargo contains.

Now, there's one more trick that might be playable, and that's slowing down the incoming cargo vessel with a mass-catcher, instead of with rockets. A mass-catcher is the reverse of a mass-driver. It uses magnetic induction to convert the kinetic energy of a metal (or metal-clad) object into electrical energy. The problem is, there's probably way too much kinetic energy in a cargo vessel weighing many tons and moving at 7.3 kilometers per second to be shed by any mass-catcher we're likely to be able to make. I'd expect that the result of trying it would be one hell of a big explosion in low Earth orbit, after which no oil, and no mass-catcher either.

So, no. Titan's hydrocarbons aren't going to save anyone on Earth.

Jerry Abbott

[Antimatter]

Nice analysis! However:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')bviously, Titan could supply a human colony in the Saturn system with energy for centuries - if there were such a colony.