[FatherOfTwo]

Experiencing a little cognitive dissonance?

Oh, and I don't need to start a thread, one already has been... and I see you've already posted to it

[Seeker]

Feel free to wait for a top-down, authoritarian solution to be implemented. There is no cognitive dissonance in what I seek to do -- I have no unrealistic idea that it will be easy, or that it will be something I can simply create in a week and be done with it. No, I know it will be a lifelong project, and one I need to get started on ASAP, before this idiotic system collapses in on itself. And I have no fear of death, but I'd like to do my best to avoid it, rather than sit around and wait for this system to completely reverse itself. If I don't have time, if starving hordes somehow show up in a rural area intent on killing me (what, are they going to drive? walk? and I'm not sure how "starving" and "hordes" go together... wouldn't a horde of starving people turn in on itself first? And since they would come from the city, how do they plan on getting around all of the OTHER "starving hordes"? And lastly, how do they figure out where I am? How many city-folk have ever heard of the WORD ecovillage, or sustainable community? Hm? Do you really think they'll know where to look, or be able to get there if they do?), if some other scenario happens and I die, I'm okay with that. I'll take my chances and start working on self-sufficiency, rather than living as a completely helpless dependent all of my life.

And you missed the point of the thread creation request. I just wanted you to let me know when the crash was going to happen, when and where the starving hordes were going to appear, if/how powerdown is GOING TO happen (not just the plan made up by people on a forum far far away from where people actually make decisions), and a few other things that might be helpful for us to know. While you're doing that, maybe you can meditate on how likely or practical the "solutions" we've put together in the Building a Consensus thread are. Thanks for the info.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Seeker', 'F')eel free to wait for a top-down, authoritarian solution to be implemented. There is no cognitive dissonance in what I seek to do -- I have no unrealistic idea that it will be easy, or that it will be something I can simply create in a week and be done with it.

[Novus]

I don't think anyone is EVER goint to have to worry about starving hordes. What I would worry about is being alone in the middle of nowhere years after the collapse and a lone theif steals my only horse on a moonless night. Or what if my horse or cow simply dies. There would be no way to replace them. The interconnected mega farms will not have this problem. Becoming 100% independent of the system is ultimately a death sentence.

I see independence as luxury. An usustainable luxury brought to you by cheap energy. One thousand years ago there was no such thing as independance for the individual. Life was extreamly hard and the only way to survive was through the close-nit interdependance of the Feudal system. If you did something bad to the collective they would not kill you they would just exile you because that would produce the same result only they wouldn't have to go through the trouble of murdering you and disposing of your corpse. As life slowly got better and people starting using coal for heating the Feudal manor system died out and was replaced by larger towns where people could be more independant then just a serf. People were still highly interdependant and exile was still a death sentence. Around the same time or a little later farming became a family affair with large extended families living together on one Farm. Over the generations these farms were subdivided into smaller and smaller plots which gave rise to more and more independance as it took less land to feed the same amount of people. Industrialization gave rise to more independance coming in the form of the nuclear family. In the 20th century independance of the individual became a cultural cliche with everyone wanting a peice of the american dream. Everyone wanted their own home in the burbs and their own car.

Now with cheap energy comming to an end don't you think the clock will turn back with interdependance replacing independance. We can already begin to see it happening. The youngest generation has been coined as the boomerang generation because life has become so hard for twenty-somethings they have had to more back in with their parents. Once again we are starting to see three generations living under one roof which was unheard of 20 years ago. I expect this to continue and excelerate as times get harder post peak. We are also seeing the rise of the four and five income household where 4 or 5 working adults share one house. In the poorest neighborehoods as many as 10 or more working adults are needed to sustain one house. Post peak this will be common place and a necessity for survival. Independance will be seen as a curse and exile will once again become a death sentence.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'W')hat I would worry about is being alone in the middle of nowhere years after the collapse and a lone theif steals my only horse on a moonless night.

[Mower]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', '.')..since we can't stop peak oil, we had better make sure to tell everyone we can about it ahead of time so they can prepare.

[Mower]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Seeker', 'T')he only thing keeping the dollar and the economy afloat is confidence. We've got to keep that confidence, while simultaneously transitioning to an alternative and also spreading the word.

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I') don't think anyone is EVER goint to have to worry about starving hordes. What I would worry about is being alone in the middle of nowhere years after the collapse and a lone theif steals my only horse on a moonless night. Or what if my horse or cow simply dies. There would be no way to replace them. The interconnected mega farms will not have this problem. Becoming 100% independent of the system is ultimately a death sentence.

I see independence as luxury. An usustainable luxury brought to you by cheap energy. One thousand years ago there was no such thing as independance for the individual. Life was extreamly hard and the only way to survive was through the close-nit interdependance of the Feudal system. If you did something bad to the collective they would not kill you they would just exile you because that would produce the same result only they wouldn't have to go through the trouble of murdering you and disposing of your corpse. As life slowly got better and people starting using coal for heating the Feudal manor system died out and was replaced by larger towns where people could be more independant then just a serf. People were still highly interdependant and exile was still a death sentence. Around the same time or a little later farming became a family affair with large extended families living together on one Farm. Over the generations these farms were subdivided into smaller and smaller plots which gave rise to more and more independance as it took less land to feed the same amount of people. Industrialization gave rise to more independance coming in the form of the nuclear family. In the 20th century independance of the individual became a cultural cliche with everyone wanting a peice of the american dream. Everyone wanted their own home in the burbs and their own car.

Now with cheap energy comming to an end don't you think the clock will turn back with interdependance replacing independance. We can already begin to see it happening. The youngest generation has been coined as the boomerang generation because life has become so hard for twenty-somethings they have had to more back in with their parents. Once again we are starting to see three generations living under one roof which was unheard of 20 years ago. I expect this to continue and excelerate as times get harder post peak. We are also seeing the rise of the four and five income household where 4 or 5 working adults share one house. In the poorest neighborehoods as many as 10 or more working adults are needed to sustain one house. Post peak this will be common place and a necessity for survival. Independance will be seen as a curse and exile will once again become a death sentence.

[retiredguy]

Entropyfails,

Could I ask you to provide some specifics as to how you are preparing for PO? Can't seem to glean that info from your posts.

I'm in general agreement with Seeker, that we need to develop some sort of Plan B. And that Plan B be community-, not individually-based.

As far as pannicking people about telling them about PO, that doesn't worry me. Hardly anyone believes me anyway. As long as bellies are full and gas is available to pump, one is going to have a hard time convincing the general public that a crisis is approaching. Even when the effects of PO become evident, most folks are going to attribute the problem to corporate greed, terrorism, etc. The real truth is just going to be too hard to swallow.

[LeonDion]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I')f the first word about Peak Oil comes from His Majesty, the masses will follow their king to war and misery.

But if everyone finds out about PO before it's publically announced, we might be able to stop some of the worst side effects.

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I') don't think anyone is EVER goint to have to worry about starving hordes. What I would worry about is being alone in the middle of nowhere years after the collapse and a lone theif steals my only horse on a moonless night. Or what if my horse or cow simply dies. There would be no way to replace them. The interconnected mega farms will not have this problem. Becoming 100% independent of the system is ultimately a death sentence.

I see independence as luxury. An usustainable luxury brought to you by cheap energy. One thousand years ago there was no such thing as independance for the individual. Life was extreamly hard and the only way to survive was through the close-nit interdependance of the Feudal system. If you did something bad to the collective they would not kill you they would just exile you because that would produce the same result only they wouldn't have to go through the trouble of murdering you and disposing of your corpse. As life slowly got better and people starting using coal for heating the Feudal manor system died out and was replaced by larger towns where people could be more independant then just a serf. People were still highly interdependant and exile was still a death sentence. Around the same time or a little later farming became a family affair with large extended families living together on one Farm. Over the generations these farms were subdivided into smaller and smaller plots which gave rise to more and more independance as it took less land to feed the same amount of people. Industrialization gave rise to more independance coming in the form of the nuclear family. In the 20th century independance of the individual became a cultural cliche with everyone wanting a peice of the american dream. Everyone wanted their own home in the burbs and their own car.

Now with cheap energy comming to an end don't you think the clock will turn back with interdependance replacing independance. We can already begin to see it happening. The youngest generation has been coined as the boomerang generation because life has become so hard for twenty-somethings they have had to more back in with their parents. Once again we are starting to see three generations living under one roof which was unheard of 20 years ago. I expect this to continue and excelerate as times get harder post peak. We are also seeing the rise of the four and five income household where 4 or 5 working adults share one house. In the poorest neighborehoods as many as 10 or more working adults are needed to sustain one house. Post peak this will be common place and a necessity for survival. Independance will be seen as a curse and exile will once again become a death sentence.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')The Planning for the Future forum is the only forum I don't read because the advise presented there is complete nonsence. Those amature farmers will be the first to fail when things get ugly. They have the least experience, the worst land, and no protection from post peak lawlessness.

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')
Man, and I thought I was a doomer...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')A few have sugested on this forum that we create "bug-out" farms far from the urban centers and beyond the mega-farms on land too poor even for agribusiness to farm with cheap energy. I just don't see any survivablitiy in this strategy even in the short term. .

[jato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an you explain more why you don't see people being able to survive on farms?

[turmoil]

novus, even during shortages do you think that there will be enough food for everyone living in the cities?

[Seeker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'P').S. Devin, sorry to be off topic – BTW, what kind of topic is not discussing the topic of the site on a discussion board?

[retiredguy]

Seeker,

Couldn't agree with you more; your assessment is totally correct. The challenge is how to build these eco-communties. The vast majority of Westerners are not ready to make this committment and I suspect that a great many posters here aren't ready to do that either.

Of those that might be interested, many probably don't have the skills needed to build such a community.

I saw attempts at this in the 60s, but very few of these communities exist today. Takes a lot of dedication and strong leadership.

Do you have a plan?

[Ghog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ouldn't agree with you more; your assessment is totally correct. The challenge is how to build these eco-communties. The vast majority of Westerners are not ready to make this committment and I suspect that a great many posters here aren't ready to do that either.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', '
')I saw attempts at this in the 60s, but very few of these communities exist today. Takes a lot of dedication and strong leadership.