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THE Patriot Act Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.
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Unread postby LadyRuby » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 08:55:12

Hey, every dog needs to have his day. There's no reason to think that the U.S. should forever be top dog when no other civilization or society has held onto it forever.

But I don't think the Patriot Act is going to be the thing that pushes us over the cliff. Naturally, being a member on this forum, I think it will be our upcoming energy problems.

Personally, I'm hoping we're taken over by Canada, or at least the blue (democratic) states.
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Unread postby Leanan » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 09:37:06

I think in the end, we will dissolve into several smaller political entities. The sea-to-shining-sea empire was made possible by cheap energy and the industrialism that came with it.

Likely the first break will be blue vs. red states. That split has existed since the Civil War; some think it actually goes back to England's civil war. We will probably devolve into even smaller nations after that - centralization shrinking along with our oil reserves.
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Unread postby BorneoRagnarok » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 09:45:17

Even mighty Psychlo in BattleField Earth 3000 SF story was wiped out by Stone Age 'animal'.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Sooner or later someone was bound to rid the galaxies of Psychlo. Whole races have dreamed that dream."


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('History book in 3500', '
')Sooner or later someone was bound to rid the earth of US Imperial Army. Whole races have dreamed that dream. Fighting terrorist since 1607 when Pocahontas (Rebecca) was kidnaped and killed in the Evil land far far away beyond the water. Wounded Knee in 1890 marked the beginning of MONSTER empire.
When all the rivers run dry, all the forests have been cleared, all the food has been eaten, tell me the value of your money
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Unread postby LadyRuby » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 10:22:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'L')ikely the first break will be blue vs. red states. That split has existed since the Civil War; some think it actually goes back to England's civil war. We will probably devolve into even smaller nations after that - centralization shrinking along with our oil reserves.


Hurrah!!
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Unread postby EnemyCombatant » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 11:43:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') think in the end, we will dissolve into several smaller political entities. The sea-to-shining-sea empire was made possible by cheap energy and the industrialism that came with it.

Likely the first break will be blue vs. red states. That split has existed since the Civil War; some think it actually goes back to England's civil war. We will probably devolve into even smaller nations after that - centralization shrinking along with our oil reserves.


I'm just curious. What happens to those of us that actually love our country. Red states and blue states type of people put a political party before their country. That is a big part of the downfall of this country.

There are no more patriots. There are none in the white house, none in the SC, and only a handfull in Congress.

This is sounding like a John Titor future. Except Titor will tell you that we will be nuked.
Now why didn't I take the blue pill.
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Unread postby PlanComplete » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 12:08:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnemyCombatant', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') think in the end, we will dissolve into several smaller political entities. The sea-to-shining-sea empire was made possible by cheap energy and the industrialism that came with it. Likely the first break will be blue vs. red states. That split has existed since the Civil War; some think it actually goes back to England's civil war. We will probably devolve into even smaller nations after that - centralization shrinking along with our oil reserves.
I'm just curious. What happens to those of us that actually love our country. Red states and blue states type of people put a political party before their country. That is a big part of the downfall of this country. There are no more patriots. There are none in the white house, none in the SC, and only a handfull in Congress. This is sounding like a John Titor future. Except Titor will tell you that we will be nuked.

I agree with most of this, is shocks the hell out of me how many "liberals are attacking conservatives, conservatives are attacking liberals" on this site. It also amazes me as it seems like a lot in here blame PO on Bush, as if the last 5 years where the tilt... All politicians our in it for themselves. You think any of them actually care about your income other then for taxing purposes? Minimum wage has not been incrreased since 1996 yet they increased there rate of pay $21,000 in that same time frame. Its a shame really since 1989 -$89,500
2004-$158,000 Minimum wage 1989- $3.35 2004- 5.15.

Now you "red state, blue state" people have to understand regardless who is in office, who control's the senate/house they are not looking out for you. Its a institution that needs to have a fresh start. Perhaps after PO we will try again. This time using the constitution how it was written, not depending on how someone reads it.
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Unread postby Leanan » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 12:23:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m just curious. What happens to those of us that actually love our country.


I don't know. What would you do if you if, say, those fundamentalists succeed in their plan for taking over South Carolina, seceding, and turning it into a Christian theocracy? Would you destroy the state, in order to save it? Or let it go?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')This is sounding like a John Titor future. Except Titor will tell you that we will be nuked.


I hope not, but I wouldn't rule it out, either.

It's that sort of consideration that has me hoping we can peacefully de-centralize. It needn't mean war. It could instead mean reverting back to being 50 states, rather than one nation.
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 12:31:42

Hate to tell you but the Democrats started the erosion of our current Rights in 1934. They havent stopped since then, continually pushing to erode our Rights.
Much later on the Republicans realized Hey! People wont stop the government from shredding the Constitution and Bill of Rights! We want to do it too!
And thats how we got here. The Democrats started the process in 1934 and the Republicans took notice and decided to have a little fun of their own.

The rest, as they say, is history.
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Unread postby PlanComplete » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 12:33:02

How would you feel if California got taken over by zealots of the athiest persuasion that there ways where the best ways for everyone? That they alone are the saviors? That the constitution was meant to be re-written by the bench? Same token different views.
I am not a religious person, but I believe in the Almighty. In any of my posts do you see me evangelizing?
I see you evangilizing your "religious" beliefs, against fundies... Two sides to every coin.

On to the 50 states, (though I would add one weak central government for defense purposes) that would be in our nations best interest and one I would like to see.
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Unread postby TheSupplyGuy » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 12:42:45

True, the Confederacy went wrong in that they only gave the central goverment economic controls(no military) and thusly each state did as they pleased.
And being a native of SC, the odds of that oft-quoted plan happening are near zero(even though it seems one of our senators, Jim DeMint, might not mind that occuring). It drives me insane how it seems that all politicians want to do is further themselves and/or their party. They all talk about improving this state, but not much has changed. Nobody seems to have original ideas anymore.
It drives me into a near fury to see the nonsense going on in Columbia and Washington.
And hopefully, as an intern next summer, I'll get to see and hear about it first hand, lol.
In the long run, men hit only what they aim at. Therefore, though they should fail immediately, they had better aim at something high.-Thoreau
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Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 12:50:27

.

There seems to be a consensus on this forum. That being, that the Empire is coming apart. That is in itself, a pretty good indication that it is actually in the process of happening. Let's just hope that the inevitable amount of blood that will flow will be limited. Could this explain how PO and the Patriot Acts related? Two events, both controlled by the presense of oil and blood.

.
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Unread postby Leanan » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 13:02:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd being a native of SC, the odds of that oft-quoted plan happening are near zero(even though it seems one of our senators, Jim DeMint, might not mind that occuring).


Now they are near zero. But once TSHTF? I think there will be a rise in extremism of all sorts. Leftwing, rightwing, religious, racial.

A big reason we are now one nation is that it serves big business. They don't want tariffs on interstate commerce. They want "standardization."

Even now, they are trying to overturn state "do not call" and anti-spam laws, on the grounds that it's too difficult to do business if the rules are different in each state. They also want the infrastructure improved - roads, bridges, ports, airports, water, electricity, etc. Because it helps business.

Yes, it's ironic. They claim they want less regulation and fewer taxes, but they really mean less regulation and fewer taxes on themselves, and more on everyone else.

But if the economy collapses - if there's no longer a lot of money to be made on national and international trade - that impetus for standardization may well fade.
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Unread postby cube » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 15:00:35

America has military bases sprinkled across the 4 corners of the globe. I forgot the exact stats but we have bases in over 100 countries. The first clue of the collapse of the American empire will be the closure of these foreign military bases. A second civil war would probably be the last act of desperation....you know you've hit rock bottom when you get to that point.

So far the US is "expanding" it bases. Mosts of the new ones will be built in "geostrategic" locations read (where the oil is). :roll:
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 15:15:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'A')merica has military bases sprinkled across the 4 corners of the globe. I forgot the exact stats but we have bases in over 100 countries. The first clue of the collapse of the American empire will be the closure of these foreign military bases. A second civil war would probably be the last act of desperation....you know you've hit rock bottom when you get to that point.

So far the US is "expanding" it bases. Mosts of the new ones will be built in "geostrategic" locations read (where the oil is). :roll:


Yeah, but the American people are getting pretty damned tired of whats happening right here at home.
Illegal immigration isnt just a "look the other way", its actually SUPPORTED.
Ever increasing tax burden
Inability to properly deal with criminals
Loss of gun rights, as well as many other rights
etc etc
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Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 16:10:24

--
Last edited by Hawkcreek on Sun 09 Sep 2007, 17:38:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby highlander » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 16:50:06

This whole "Red state-Blue state" schism is really devisive. Look at the demographics. It has very little to do with states. It's cities. The bastion of those needing to be cared for by the gov't. Where will the blue leaning folk go when the gov't can no longer afford to take care of them? Maybe we can implement Phase one of Monte's powerdown scenerio on the cities :shock:
OK, I'm just kidding.......I hope
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Unread postby Roy » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 16:50:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')eah, but the American people are getting pretty damned tired of whats happening right here at home.
Illegal immigration isnt just a "look the other way", its actually SUPPORTED.
Ever increasing tax burden
Inability to properly deal with criminals
Loss of gun rights, as well as many other rights
etc etc


I definitely fit that profile. But I think the reality is that most Americans are content with their lives. They have too much to lose to stand against govt tyranny. As long as it isn't affecting them they don't care. As long as they can drive everywhere, eat fast food at will, shop at will, and borrow at will, they won't care.

Most of the engineers I work with don't know who Karl Rove is. That's right. But they can summarize plots of weekly sitcoms with ease, tell you the hottest new cellphone models, and even which models in Mercedes Benz line of cars can get the AMG package (the old me drooled over those for years).

Until there is mass discomfort/hardship, there will be no awakening. Its much easier to brush off issues as someone else's problem and ignore it.

Once economic hard times hit us (and they surely will, whether its PO related or not) that's when the people will wake up. When they have nothing to lose is when they will revolt. Not before.

My greatest fear right now is that there will be a backlash from W's ingoramus leadership that could land Hillary Clinton in office in 08.

I hope the backlash comes and lets us have a viable third party. Of course, the media will do nothing to promote that party. Perot was the only third party candidate I ever remember getting more than token coverage.

Even then, someone threatened to expose his daughter's sexuality and he withdrew from the election in 92. He would have had my vote had he not withdrawn. Now we have a VP (family values christian guy--supposedly) with an openly gay daughter and its no big deal.

Wierd.

Its gonna take a food shortage or major energy shortage to motivate the rank and file in this country. They don't pay attention. Period.
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Unread postby Hubbert2005 » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 17:49:09

Highlander what exactly does this statement mean?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here will the blue leaning folk go when the gov't can no longer afford to take care of them?


I believe welfare payments overwhelmingly go out to red states, is that not being taken care of by the government? I believe that like it or not we are all VERY dependant on the government when it comes to organization of our social systems and economies.
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Unread postby LeonDion » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 18:14:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', 'I') definitely fit that profile. But I think the reality is that most Americans are content with their lives. ... Until there is mass discomfort/hardship, there will be no awakening. Its much easier to brush off issues as someone else's problem and ignore it.


Absolutely true! You hit the nail right on the head.

I also agree with directinfo:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')int: "Left-Right" is a false paradigm. That is a division of the base to benefit the top of the Hegelian Dialectical pyramid. The real paradigm is elite vs a serf class. The top wants us fighting against each other at the base and forgetting about who is printing the money, selling the arms, consolidating power.


Do you realize the power of central banking? Knowing how major market shifts will occur well ahead of the markets is extremely useful in the world of big money and high finance. Having the ability to basically print money and then pass it on to your allies before its worth is diluted is very powerful, as well. This, for me, is the greatest sin the whores in congress have allowed to happen. Many of them don't understand the Fed, but many of them do, all too well.

What we are seeing the "government" doing is all motivated by fear. Look at the popular revoloutions taking place throughout the world - in central Asia, South America, and even popular uprisings in China, of all places! There's been several "eco-riots" in China this past summer, as well as riot which appear to be motivated by the great disparity between the nouveau riche and the average worker. Considering the rate of China's economic growth, this is not surprising.

There's an old Chinese saying: "If you don't stir up trouble, you won't be afraid of ghosts in the night." Governments like ours are afraid of suffering a backlash for years of oppression, fraud, support of murder squads and dictatorships, fomenting of civil strife and war, torture, blackmail, arms running, drug-smuggling, deceit, and so on.

And it's definitely not a left-right issue. The serious-minded people on both the left and the right can't talk to each other because the debate has been framed within very narrow boundaries, and the real causes of discontent have been obfuscated. How many on the left and the right argue about wealth redistribution on behalf of the poor, without recognizing that they would both have much more in common examining unconstitutional wealth redistribution on behalf of the rich?

Now, we here are aware that Peak Oil is looming, and we understand the massive challenge of finding any replacement. In fact it appears that no replacement is forthcoming, so we can be quite certain that economic conditions will worsen, and hardships will increase. So any talk of politicians doing something or other to improve the conditions of a given city, state, or nation, becomes something of an excersize in futility.

We need to recognize that quality of life is determined to a large part on how secure you feel within your surroundings and whether you feel that you are in control of your own life. Justice, fairness, and a sense of community can make life much more livable, more than this insane world which man's less noble desires have driven us into creating.

That would explain why it says in Galatians that the law has no power over the fruits of the spirit. Having love, peace, goodness, etc., harmonizes pretty well with the fulfillment of one's psychological needs. It also sums up a lot of the mental health goals which we should actively pursue in order to deal with the coming relentless decline of physical ease and abundance.

I believe that the question of violence in reaction to peak oil will be brought about by the further actions of the ruling powers. I think they will make the mistake of striking first, until it's obvious what's up. There were crackdowns on dissent on the part of every government faltering in the past. Life went on then. The major differences this time are 1) This is a global collapse we're talking about, and 2) People like the Bush Family have at their disposal horrible weapons of mass destruction, including bio-WMDs. That's the recipe for some serious disaster.

I think the elite will strike first, because they are the best informed of the problems facing us, and know that it will affect their personal fortunes and their ability to maintain control. They also are aware that there is no "they" who will solve our problems, while the "prole" types seem to always have a "they" to put their faith in. Throughout history, the elite have always fought between themselves, with the prole types doing the actual bloodshedding, or have simply instigated war between the proles to further their greed.

What's it going to take to survive this, as a race? I believe it'll to require a worldwide recognition of mankind's limits upon this planet, and a consious choice among all to start living sustainably within those limits. This will require a deadening of the common human desires which lead to conquest, empire, and war: desires like greed, the desire to be seen as "better" than others, and the desire to gain control over others.

This will only be achieved after a painful process of suffering, to the point where the species is so beaten down by the suffering that we are no longer willing to tolerate more. At that time, the physical hardships might be dealt with more sanely, through cooperation and peace, rather than the Bush way - through deceit and war. This process is analogous to the way that drug addicts and alchoholics give up their addictions - and illusions. It's only when the addict realizes how badly he suffers as a result of his addiction that he's willing to take steps to start changing. Too bad, but the world as a whole is addicted to lots of illusions - illusions which our long-dead ancestors apparently did not maintain, if they were anything like the primitive cultures which remain.

The end of the cheap oil era doesn't have to be all negative. Something good - a lot of good - can come of it.
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Unread postby PlanComplete » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 18:47:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hubbert2005', 'H')ighlander what exactly does this statement mean?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here will the blue leaning folk go when the gov't can no longer afford to take care of them?


I believe welfare payments overwhelmingly go out to red states, is that not being taken care of by the government? I believe that like it or not we are all VERY dependant on the government when it comes to organization of our social systems and economies.


Image

Now lets look at this with some honesty. Without the liberal slant eh.

I hated doing research when you should of been the one doing so. But its obvious with just a few minutes worth of work you are wrong
California 1,272,468
New York 693,012
Illinois 259,242
Pennsylvania 232,976
Washington 146,375
Oregon 42,374
Minnesota 116,589
Wisconsin 37,381
Michigan 195,101
Dist. of Col 44,487
Maryland 70,910
3,110,915 aid recievers out of a total of 5,780,543 so thats over half of the total from these blue states (minus about 6 of the smaller blue states that would just make the blue state total more but I chose to stop when it was obvious you where wrong) http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/caseload.htm

I think maybe you should rethink er perhaps just change your views a bit eh.
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