I still think Carbonosis is the real answer. I searched through my personal library when I got back home last week and I still have the article published back in the early 1990's that explain Fermi's Paradox quite nicely based on real world physics. It turns out that our little corner of the galaxy has an unusually high Oxygen percentage compared to the average for the rest of the Milky Way. As a result the Sol System and a few hundred nearby stars have the excess necessary to develop aerobic life forms that use atmospheric oxygen to break chemical bonds to produce energy.
Unfortunately for the other 90% plus of the Milky Way these conditions do not prevail and life is stuck with Anaerobic reactions that produce far less energy on a unit basis. The Galaxy could be absolutely teeming with Anaerobic life forms based on water/carbon/sulfur/nitrogen chemistry but if so they would avoid our section of the galaxy because our portion is full of deadly reactive Oxygen that kills them on contact. There is also the factor that Anaerobic reactions are very low energy compared to what we experience so their cognitive development would be very different from ours. It might take them hours to recognize another sentient presence enunciate the word 'Hello' not because they are stupid but because their thought patterns flow at what to us would seem like cold molasses syrup speeds. We may be missing a massive galaxy wide conversation simply because they are communicating at a rate of one character per hour or day and we simply never put the apparently random characters together into a coherent message. The background noise of the universe puts out so many random bits of data that if you use the wrong sorting rate you can not find the intentional symbols in the sea of random symbols.
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Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by Tanada » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 04:51:47
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by Newfie » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 07:26:52
Interesting, I had never heard that about oxeygen distribution.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by Cog » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 07:57:05
Or anaerobic conditions never gives rise to sentience.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by onlooker » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 09:08:03
Wow Tanada that is a really in depth intriguing angle. Thanks.
Also, can I ask you what are your thoughts on the prevalence of silicon based life forms as opposed to the carbon based ones on Earth? I first encountered this on an original Star Trek episode
Also, can I ask you what are your thoughts on the prevalence of silicon based life forms as opposed to the carbon based ones on Earth? I first encountered this on an original Star Trek episode
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by Cog » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:19:01
Silicate based life is a dead end because of energy transfer problems and the tendency to react with oxygen to form non-reactive solids. You can read more about the issues with silicon here.
http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... nlife.html
http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... nlife.html
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by MD » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:14:32
"galactic seeds" remain the most likely. They can be technology based, which could mean dna coding (bio technology borgs... *us*). Let's assume a galaxy with with life forms that pressed the limits many billions of years ago. Is it feasible or possible from our current short lived monkey perspective to think such beings could have emerged from the center of the galaxy with billion year engineering projects? Could they have arrived in this solar system and engineered this planet? If so, what would be their purpose? Certainly not conquest, or maybe we are the seed that's supposed to milk our solar system? Again what would be their purpose? Maybe they just love the arts, and cherish our music. Maybe they are hoping that finally their progeny will overcome the limits. Or maybe they aren't there?
Stop thinking in terms of thousands of years. Shift to millions or billions, and possibilities open up. There might even be stories there! And maybe.. that's the point?
Stop thinking in terms of thousands of years. Shift to millions or billions, and possibilities open up. There might even be stories there! And maybe.. that's the point?
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by MD » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:18:40
https://play.google.com/music/preview/T ... =kp-lyrics
https://play.google.com/music/preview/T ... =kp-lyrics
https://play.google.com/music/preview/T ... =kp-lyrics
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by MD » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:23:07
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by onlooker » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:27:04
Yes this scenario I find most intriguing of DNA coding , data storage and manipulation. As for thinking in millions and billions of years that is logical considering that we estimate our planet to be 4.5 billion years old meanwhile the Universe 13.5 billion years. So somebody (s) could have had a heck of a headstart on us
But, we may not need to think in such long intervals to stretch the imagination considering how much we have progressed technologically in roughly just 100 years
But, we may not need to think in such long intervals to stretch the imagination considering how much we have progressed technologically in roughly just 100 years
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by MD » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:27:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh3Kk5tZSmo
one more and I'm going off topic... sort of
i just love that song...
one more and I'm going off topic... sort of
i just love that song...
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
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It's not hard to do.
Just think it through.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by MD » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:30:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh3Kk5tZSmo
so a serious question. maybe this is what it's all about? Add Mozart, Poe, Shakespeare, and all the rest. Art, in all it's forms. Even the moon as an artifact.
Notes from a dreamer. Merry Christmas everyone!
so a serious question. maybe this is what it's all about? Add Mozart, Poe, Shakespeare, and all the rest. Art, in all it's forms. Even the moon as an artifact.
Notes from a dreamer. Merry Christmas everyone!
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by MD » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:46:04
cue up ancient aliens up there somewhere?
"hey Sam! Did you hear this one! Brilliant!"
"Yes it's fine Nancy bu they are about to kill themselves off again."
"Well I suppose so. They're expecting that anyway. What shall we do about it?"
"I don't know. Nick their nuke codes again? Give them another bit of technology to get them over the hump?"
"They're getting dangerous to themselves. Maybe time for another flood?"
"Don't know about that. Last one took us 300 million years of gathering H2O from the fifth planet, then it took another fifty million for the team to bring them back up from the dinosaurs. I loved those critters. Such lovely dance moves."
"well I suppose we should just burn them up and start over. They're expecting that anyway."
"I guess so. Venus?"
"Yes, that's next on the list. We'll have to move the moon again."
"Oh good lord... I'll have to ask the boss. That's not supposed to be for another 500 million years. I'll need to get her approval."
...
"dreamer! Nothing but a dreamer!"
oh if any of you young dreamers out there take this story and make something of it? I want credits, not money. Don't give a shit for money. It's poison.
"hey Sam! Did you hear this one! Brilliant!"
"Yes it's fine Nancy bu they are about to kill themselves off again."
"Well I suppose so. They're expecting that anyway. What shall we do about it?"
"I don't know. Nick their nuke codes again? Give them another bit of technology to get them over the hump?"
"They're getting dangerous to themselves. Maybe time for another flood?"
"Don't know about that. Last one took us 300 million years of gathering H2O from the fifth planet, then it took another fifty million for the team to bring them back up from the dinosaurs. I loved those critters. Such lovely dance moves."
"well I suppose we should just burn them up and start over. They're expecting that anyway."
"I guess so. Venus?"
"Yes, that's next on the list. We'll have to move the moon again."
"Oh good lord... I'll have to ask the boss. That's not supposed to be for another 500 million years. I'll need to get her approval."
...
"dreamer! Nothing but a dreamer!"
oh if any of you young dreamers out there take this story and make something of it? I want credits, not money. Don't give a shit for money. It's poison.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Has Kepler Discovered an Alien Megastructure?
by vox_mundi » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:59:08
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'I') still think Carbonosis is the real answer. I searched through my personal library when I got back home last week and I still have the article published back in the early 1990's that explain Fermi's Paradox quite nicely based on real world physics. It turns out that our little corner of the galaxy has an unusually high Oxygen percentage compared to the average for the rest of the Milky Way. As a result the Sol System and a few hundred nearby stars have the excess necessary to develop aerobic life forms that use atmospheric oxygen to break chemical bonds to produce energy.
Unfortunately for the other 90% plus of the Milky Way these conditions do not prevail and life is stuck with Anaerobic reactions that produce far less energy on a unit basis. ...
Unfortunately for the other 90% plus of the Milky Way these conditions do not prevail and life is stuck with Anaerobic reactions that produce far less energy on a unit basis. ...
Um; I don't think so.
Carbonosis was a conjecture opined by Stephen L. Gillett, Ph.D., a geologist, in an opinion essay he wrote titled: Carbonosis: Organic Desiccation and the Fermi Paradox in Analog Science Fiction and Fact, March 1993. Astrophysics has leapfrogged past his opinion in the past 25 years.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]http://www.philsp.com/visco/Magazines/ASF/ASF_0760.jpg[/img]
Here's why.
There's more than enough Oxygen to go around in the Milky Way (it's the third most common element behind Hydrogen and Helium).
There is a slight gradient, with the most Oxygen enriched stars at the center of our galaxy with a flattening distribution curve extending out beyond the edge our galaxy.
Oxygen is also concentrated within the spiral arms and reduced between them.
You will note that the sun is located between two spiral arms (Sagittarius and Perseus Arms) and 2/3 of the way to the edge - which would place us in an oxygen deficient zone.
And yet; Here we are.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/The_Galaxy.jpg/480px-The_Galaxy.jpg[/img]
The Elements of Life Mapped Across the Milky Way by Sloan Digital Sky Survey/APOGEE
Spiralling galaxy arms spread oxygen around for future planets
The Distribution of Heavy Elements in Spiral and Elliptical Galaxies: Metallicity Gradients in the Milky Way Galaxy
Re:Silicon Life ...
Scientists Persuade Nature to Make Silicon-Carbon Bonds
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he study is the first to show that nature can adapt to incorporate silicon into carbon-based molecules, the building blocks of life. Scientists have long wondered if life on Earth could have evolved to be based on silicon instead of carbon. Science-fiction authors likewise have imagined alien worlds with silicon-based life, like the lumpy Horta creatures portrayed in an episode of the 1960s TV series Star Trek. Carbon and silicon are chemically very similar. They both can form bonds to four atoms simultaneously, making them well suited to form the long chains of molecules found in life, such as proteins and DNA.
The researchers used a method called directed evolution, pioneered by Arnold in the early 1990s, in which new and better enzymes are created in labs by artificial selection, similar to the way that breeders modify corn, cows, or cats.
After only three rounds, they had created an enzyme that can selectively make silicon-carbon bonds 15 times more efficiently than the best catalyst invented by chemists. Furthermore, the enzyme is highly selective, which means that it makes fewer unwanted byproducts that have to be chemically separated out.
"This iron-based, genetically encoded catalyst is nontoxic, cheaper, and easier to modify compared to other catalysts used in chemical synthesis," says Kan. "The new reaction can also be done at room temperature and in water."
As to the question of whether life can evolve to use silicon on its own, Arnold says that is up to nature. "This study shows how quickly nature can adapt to new challenges," she says. "The DNA-encoded catalytic machinery of the cell can rapidly learn to promote new chemical reactions when we provide new reagents and the appropriate incentive in the form of artificial selection. Nature could have done this herself if she cared to."
Directed Evolution of Cytochrome c for Carbon-Silicon Bond Formation: Bringing Silicon to Life," Science
Re: Mars
Mars and Earth May Not Have Been Early Neighbors
Last edited by vox_mundi on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:04:37, edited 1 time in total.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci
Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
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