[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'P')eople never fully appreciate what they have until it's gone. I'm not saying walking through a Wal-Mart is a transcendent experience, but the fact that all this stuff is at arm's reach for so cheap IS truly exceptional and will one day be the stuff of myth and legend.

[onlooker]

Yeah, I have never been one to shop for merchandise too shop especially not at Walmart which does not exist hardly in the NY area. I have always preferred to spend money on some activity like traveling etc. As for what we have, well some of what we have has been good for us first worlders, other stuff not so good like, some of the food, some of the addictive stuff and activities, lack of time, lack of nature, etc. So it is a mixed bag. To be truthful, I really like being here and being able to talk with others. Go figure.

[ennui2]

Future humans in a post-crash lifestyle may shake their fist at prior generations, but they will not have had to face the test of deciding whether to consume or not to consume. Odds are, even with the gift of hindsight, if thrown into that situation, they'd do just what we're doing rather than to live in voluntary austerity. They'll only seem morally superior because their consumption limits will be imposed by a broken ecosystem. It's like someone who loses weight only because of gastric band surgery. The willpower isn't there.

I just think it's natural for a human being to want to live at above one earth footprint. Whether he's entitled to or capable of doing so or not, it's what he wants to do.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
I think we may see two macro movements at play at the same time. The unglueing of the global economic system that will increasingly fail to hold itself together and the less complex world that follows will be more regional and the convergence and consensus will tighten within these regional populations.

So a tearing apart of a complex world due to declining energy, environmental chaos and population contraction. And then a coalescing and convergence regionally. Increasingly defined by the carrying capacity of consumption and population that each region can generate without external imports. This may actually take place gradually through several generations or more abruptly. Nobody knows.

I would not under estimate our global civilization though. There is still a lot of resiliency out there to send food to areas when drought strikes. To send teams of pathologists to hold back epidemics, for global powers like China investing in far off places. This is the glue that still holds our global civilization together. We require some pretty severe consequences to start the unglueing when nations increasingly pull back to reserve resources and investments to within their borders as a result of crisis.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
I am not sure that there was this oppressive sense of looming mortality. That may be your projection sitting in the here and now of our modern world where our expectancy of a long and stable life looks back on these times with this sense of oppression.

For those that were actually there and living without these assumptions there may not have been this sense of oppression.

Think of Mozart or Chopin, both died young living in a world where high mortality rates and disease was the norm. You do have to ask yourself if life back then wasn't more intensely lived, the uncertainty of a long life focused your powers of creativity and sense of being with a deeper vertical sense.

We live today long and shallow lives by comparison.

Or is this idea of a deeper vertical life just some romantic notion that I am projecting on to these past times?

Only the shadow knows!

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '
')
I recall one article that pointed out that most people did not have access to music of Mozart, Chopin, and others during those historical periods because they did not have enough surplus energy and material resources to travel long distances often. Likely they also had little access to well-stocked libraries, books, museums, universities, and so on.

Given that, it's possible that their lives were strongly based on localization. That meant more emphasis on folk music, oral literature, local celebrations in connection to harvests, etc.

[SeaGypsy]

The perfect hologram for a soylent green system perhaps, a technology so convincing of digital eternity surrender of the body becomes like a bonus points scoring move in a video game.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
All true. Most people created in their local spaces culture, music, stories and celebrations without heavy material inputs. It raises the question about the balance of wellbeing and material inputs in any given culture. In reference to that balance I think there is a direct link between environmental degradation and modern human mental illness in how way out of balance our culture is regarding wellbeing and material inputs.

We think more material inputs equates with greater wellbeing. There is that point where greater material inputs fails to increase wellbeing and it is exactly where those excesses start that we also degraded our environment.

I mentioned in the past that humans do not manage abundance well. Will human culture ever develop a sophisticated set of taboos and governance to set boundaries that allow that proper balance of well being and material inputs? And will the consequences of our excesses force us to confront this question with wisdom at some point in our species future?

[vox_mundi]

The contented shall inherit the Earth—The glum? Not so much

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he survival of the fittest might just be the survival of the steadfast instead. Having a positive attitude could be evolutionarily advantageous, according to Cornell researchers who simulated generations of evolution in a computational model.

The findings offer scientific support to the ancient philosophical insights from China, Greece and India, which encourage cultivating long-term contentment or life satisfaction rather than grasping at the fleeting joy of instant gratification, the researchers said.

"In an evolutionary sense, you have to evaluate your life on the basis of more than what happened just now," said Shimon Edelman, professor of psychology and a co-author of the study. advantageous in a computational model that simulates evolution.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he "agents" or simulated actors that survived to produce offspring in the researchers' model were the ones that attached more weight to longer-term happiness than to momentary happiness, especially when food was scarce. They also "remembered" past happiness for a longer period of time than their less-successful counterparts. No matter whether food was abundant or scarce, the agents that had a more positive outlook - attaching more importance to upswings in their situations than to downswings - also were more evolutionarily fit. Their counterparts that gave more attention to short-term joy and a negative attitude died off.

[Cid_Yama]

This is a Jimi Hendrix song from Axis: Bold as Love. It was in the movie Easy Rider, but only part of it. Unfortunately, YouTube does not have the full Jimi Hendrix version. Apparently a gazillion bands have done covers.


If 6 were 9
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')eah, sing a song bro'...)
If the sun refused to shine
I don't mind, I don't mind
(Yeah)
If the mountains ah, fell in the sea
Let it be, it ain't me.
(Well, all right)

Got my own world to live through and uh, ha !
And I ain't gonna copy you.

Yeah (sing the song brother...)
Now if uh, six uh, huh, turned out to be nine
Oh I don't mind, I don't mind uh ( Well all right... )
If all the hippies cut off all their hair
Oh I don't care, oh I don't care.
Dig.

'Cause I've got my own world to live through and uh, huh
And I ain't gonna copy you.

White collar conservative flashin' down the street
Pointin' their plastic finger at me, ha !
They're hopin' soon my kind will drop and die but uh
I'm gonna wave my freak flag high, high !
Oww !

Wave on, wave on...

Ah, ha, ha
Fall mountains, just don't fall on me
Go ahead on mister business man, you can't dress like me
Yeah !

Don't nobody know what I'm talkin' about
I've got my own life to live
I'm the one that's gonna die when it's time for me to die
So let me live my life the way I want to
Yeah, sing on brother, play on drummer.

[SeaGypsy]

My brother is obsessed with Jimi, since we were kids. He has collected every known recording of the guy doing anything, read every word ever written about him. He says Hendrix was a victim of mannequinisation- made to play a role & wear clothes he didn't really feel comfortable in etc to the point he lost himself. Combination of psychedelics & forced artistry, alcohol & barbs, pretty deadly.

My view on that part of history is that there was a break in the continuum of generations subsequent to WW1&2, particularly in countries most affected by the war then the boom & bust afterwards. As insight comes about not by worship of youth but by careful listening to the old, much of the world has been batshit crazy by every long standing branch of human philosophy, for generations. Things moving & changing so fast that the murmers of wise elders don't even rate as noise to the general populace, who are as gullible as children in marketing terms while self proclaiming based on Google wisdom. What they say about a rudderless ship.

Yet funny enough Guru Google might just lead back on itself. This is why Ibon keeps referring to the age of consequences testing what we have really become. So many take this angle as somehow a trigger for massive negativity, when it is based in the opposite combination of drivers- reverence for the wisdom of ages, the modern beauty concept being no more than a marketing angle on a figment of youth.

To people of many cultures & languages, it is said English is a very businesslike language & that cultures derived from English tend to be very materialistic when compared to any other. We tend towards reductionist quantification, whether talking about a romantic interest or a move in a game. We don't like being told how to or what to think. Leave the flowery language for pop songs & women's entertainment. How anyone might expect a consequence free emergence of a stable culture out of this? Meanwhile ever increasing cultural diversity in globalized cities, cultural dieoff elsewhere.

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I') mentioned in the past that humans do not manage abundance well. Will human culture ever develop a sophisticated set of taboos and governance to set boundaries that allow that proper balance of well being and material inputs? And will the consequences of our excesses force us to confront this question with wisdom at some point in our species future?

[Ibon]

Timo

Up until now every civilization has simply consumed what was possible based on technology, environmental stability and resource extraction. As these parameters go up and down civilization adapts to what is possible. During times of abundance we are grizzlies during the salmon run, biting off the fat belly of the fish and tossing the rest aside. During times of constraints we chew the bones.

When I say we don't handle abundance well simply means that we do not have any self regulation mechanism culturally to consume in a measured sustainable way when resources are abundant.

The question really is if we will ever break out of this cycle or if civilizations will always just rise and fall matching closely the resource base available.

To manage wisely sustainable consumption we would have to constrain consumption and breeding even in times of abundant resources. To do that would require some kind of super state, something beyond the tribal level that we evolved within. Something that might really be impossible.

Unless consequences are so severe that they codify through taboos and laws an arrangement that falls outside the tribal one we evolved within. This is just pure conjecture and I agree, we will both be dead when this bet is won.

[onlooker]

I believe I have reached a point whereby my pessimism lies in the condition of the Earth and its ability to support complex life but my optimism lies in something akin to what Ibon stresses. Namely, that the immensity of the Ordeal we will pass through will shape humanity in the desired manner to allow it to evolve to a more enlightened stage consistent with its long term survival.

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')hen I say we don't handle abundance well simply means that we do not have any self regulation mechanism culturally to consume in a measured sustainable way when resources are abundant. ..........

To manage wisely sustainable consumption we would have to constrain consumption and breeding even in times of abundant resources. To do that would require some kind of super state, something beyond the tribal level that we evolved within. Something that might really be impossible.

[ennui2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')To manage wisely sustainable consumption we would have to constrain consumption and breeding even in times of abundant resources. To do that would require some kind of super state, something beyond the tribal level that we evolved within. Something that might really be impossible.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')imo

Up until now every civilization has simply consumed what was possible based on technology, environmental stability and resource extraction. As these parameters go up and down civilization adapts to what is possible. During times of abundance we are grizzlies during the salmon run, biting off the fat belly of the fish and tossing the rest aside. During times of constraints we chew the bones.

When I say we don't handle abundance well simply means that we do not have any self regulation mechanism culturally to consume in a measured sustainable way when resources are abundant.

The question really is if we will ever break out of this cycle or if civilizations will always just rise and fall matching closely the resource base available.

To manage wisely sustainable consumption we would have to constrain consumption and breeding even in times of abundant resources. To do that would require some kind of super state, something beyond the tribal level that we evolved within. Something that might really be impossible.

Unless consequences are so severe that they codify through taboos and laws an arrangement that falls outside the tribal one we evolved within. This is just pure conjecture and I agree, we will both be dead when this bet is won.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'd')espite the fact that the internet has given everyone a voice, and it's possible to disseminate information about limits to growth, simply telling people these ecological truths does not get them to self-regulate. It goes in one ear and out the other.

[Ibon]

On this topic of consensus and conformity for the greater good.

Here is a bit of a twist to consider. The social conservatives that make up the Republican Party are pretty ardent anti environmentalists. Forget a moment abortion, gay marriage and all the other hot button issues and look to the deeper yearning of this movement. The consequences coming this century and the environmental ethics around eventually mitigating these consequences are actually perfect allies to these social conservatives in the synergy of the values they preach and the directions we must head toward; less consumption, more family and community focus, less hedonistic individualism, more respect to authority, etc. etc.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'd')espite the fact that the internet has given everyone a voice, and it's possible to disseminate information about limits to growth, simply telling people these ecological truths does not get them to self-regulate. It goes in one ear and out the other.