[Plantagenet]

Now that George Washington has been outed as a slave-owner, some folks think he shouldn't be honored by having his name on Government institutions. The question has already arisen what to call Washington DC when Washington's name is removed?

One suggestion is to rename Washington DC as "Black City." Black City would honor all the black slaves who built Washington DC, and would be a repudiation of the city's history of association with slavery.

rename-washington-dc-Black-City

[Cog]

Another city goes full retard. They want everything removed that reminds them of the past, not just the four statues. One wonders if that will appease the folks who have adopted a victim mentality. Doubtful.

The Left hates you. They hate me. They hate America. They hate the history of America. They hate Conservatives. They hate any White person who isn't a libtard. They hate Southerners. And they really hate any Black person who doesn't stay on the leftist plantation.

Given the chance, they would eliminate any traces of monuments to the Confederates. Then they would dig up the bodies of the Confederate dead, grind them to dust, and dump them at sea. Then they would search out anyone who had a genetic tie to any slave owner and have them arrested and sentenced to a life of hard labor to atone for what their ancestors did. Then they would do the same thing to any Conservative, then to anyone who isn't Liberal, and then they would start eating themselves until no one remained. And that last hate filled leftist would be happy that the evil of humanity had been eliminated from the face of the earth.


More at news link


http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... t-comments

The list of Confederate-inspired monuments facing expulsion from New Orleans' public square is limited to four, so far.

For some, that's four too many. For others, though, that's merely a good start in a city where the history of the Confederacy and its heroes is etched into stone and stamped onto street signs from the river to the lake.

In his address to the City Council Thursday (July 9), Mayor Mitch Landrieu called for the removal of Robert E. Lee, PGT Beauregard and Jefferson Davis and the Battle of Liberty Place monument.

Of the members of the public who took the lectern after Landrieu to support the removal of the monuments, nearly all of them pointed to other monuments, landmarks and buildings dedicated to people associated with the Confederacy.

"It's not just four statues; it's scores of statues and street names and school names that insult our intelligence, that insult our integrity and insult our sense of history and purpose," said Malcolm Suber, who is black.

[Cog]

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
George Orwell, 1984

[Sixstrings]

Memphis plans to exhume the remains of Forrest, and his wife (they'll have to exhume her too, she is buried there too).

The family says they are adamantly opposed to the remains being exhumed and moved, and opposed to the statue coming down.

The city voted to do it though, and "sell the statue to whoever wants it." It's a cast bronze made in Paris in 1900, shipped to Tennessee.

The truth seems to be complex, about Forrest:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')eneral Nathan Bedford Forrest Versus the Ku Klux Klan

Think that if he were alive today, General Nathan Bedford Forrest would embrace Dylann Roof, the alleged killer of nine blacks in a Charleston Church who hoped to start a race war?

Think again. In fact, toward the end of his life, General Forrest would have likely sought to exterminate those who would kill blacks in his name, or for his "cause," like Roof.

...

But even this Forrest critic can admit that the Klan founder did one great thing for this country. He disbanded the KKK, and even worked to fight those who wanted to keep it going.

As Ben Phelan with PBS writes:

"After only a year as Grand Wizard, in January 1869, faced with an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: "It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed." By the end of his life, Forrest's racial attitudes would evolve -- in 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school -- and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan."
If you read Eddy W. Davison's "Nathan Bedford Forrest: In Search of the Enigma," on page 464 and 474-475, you can see that Forrest not only publicly disavowed the KKK and worked to terminate it, but in August 1874, Forrest "volunteered to help 'exterminate' those men responsible for the continued violence against the blacks."

After the murder of four blacks by a lynch mob after they were arrested for defending themselves at a BBQ, Forrest wrote to Tennessee Governor Brown, offering "to exterminate the white marauders who disgrace their race by this cowardly murder of Negroes."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tures/general-nathan-bedford-fo_b_7734444.html

[Sixstrings]

Sometimes history is not quite what people think it is, or want it to be:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')orrest : Memphis' first White Civil Rights Advocate

The Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (predecessor to the NAACP) was organized by Southern blacks after the war to promote black voting rights, etc. One of their early conventions was held in Memphis and Mr. Forrest was invited to be the guest speaker, the first white man ever to be invited to speak to the Association.

After the Civil War, General Forrest made a speech to the Memphis City Council (then called the Board of Aldermen). In this speech he said that there was no reason that the black man could not be doctors, store clerks, bankers, or any other job equal to whites. They were part of our community and should be involved and employed as such just like anyone else. In another speech to Federal authorities, Forrest said that many of the ex-slaves were skilled artisans and needed to be employed and that those skills needed to be taught to the younger workers.

...

Forrest was a brilliant cavalryman and courageous soldier. As author Jack Hurst writes: a man possessed of physical valor perhaps unprecedented among his countrymen, as well as, ironically, a man whose social attitudes may well have changed farther in the direction of racial enlightenment over the span of his lifetime than those of most American historical figures.

When Forrest died in 1877 it is noteworthy that his funeral in Memphis was attended not only by a throng of thousands of whites but by hundreds of blacks as well. The funeral procession was over two miles long and was attended by over 10,000 area residents, including 3000 black citizens paying their respects.

...

Forrest's speech to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association July 5, 1875.

A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering.

The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union, and following a brief welcoming address a Miss Lou Lewis, daughter of an officer of the Pole-Bearers, brought forward flowers and assurances that she conveyed them as a token of good will. After Miss Lewis handed him the flowers, General Forrest responded with a short speech that, in the contemporary pages of the Memphis Appeal, evinces Forrest's racial open-mindedness that seemed to have been growing in him.

Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself.

( Immense applause and laughter.)

I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none.

(Applause.)

I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself.

I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand.

(Prolonged applause.)

Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.
http://tennessee-scv.org/ForrestHistSociety/forrest_speech.html

[Sixstrings]

At the end of the war, it was feared by many that Forrest may continue on and lead a guerilla army. But he did not. He gave this remarkable speech to his troops:

Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men.

The attempt made to establish a separate and independent Confederation has failed; but the consciousness of having done your duty faithfully, and to the end, will, in some measure, repay for the hardships you have undergone.

In bidding you farewell, rest assured that you carry with you my best wishes for your future welfare and happiness. Without, in any way, referring to the merits of the Cause in which we have been engaged, your courage and determination, as exhibited on many hard-fought fields, has elicited the respect and admiration of friend and foe. And I now cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge my indebtedness to the officers and men of my command whose zeal, fidelity and unflinching bravery have been the great source of my past success in arms.

I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous.

N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General

Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps

Gainesville, Alabama

May 9, 1865

[Sixstrings]

Forrest's obituary, New York Times 1877:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')eath of Gen. Forrest

By THE NEW YORK TIMES

MEMPHIS, Tenn., Oct. 29.--Gen. Bedford Forrest, the great Confederate cavalry officer, died at 7:30 o'clock this evening at the residence of his brother, Col. Jesse Forrest.

Forrest's Career

In an article published in The New-York Times immediately before the close of the war, the characteristic types of the soldiers of the South were sketched. It was pointed out that while Virginia, and what might be called the "old South," produced gallant soldiers and dignified gentlemen, the South-west, the rude border country, gave birth to men of reckless ruffianism and cut-throat daring. The type of the first was Gen. Robert E. Lee; that of the latter, Gen. Bedford Forrest. At the date this article was written, (March, 1865,) Forrest seems to have been considered by many as the most formidable cavalry commander then in the Armies of the South; but he was so essentially guerrilla-like in his methods of warfare, and withal was so notoriously bloodthirsty and revengeful, that it was thought he would, when the other Southern commanders surrendered, an event then seen to be inevitable, collect around him all the desperate and discontented elements of the Southern Armies and maintain a guerrilla warfare on the South-western borders.

This expectation was not realized, for when the crash came, everything went down in the grand ruin, and Forrest had had more than enough fighting to satisfy him. He was not a trained soldier, and he made his way up to the rank he held by sheer force of energy and fight from the rank of a private. For some years before the rebellion, (to quote from the article referred to,) Forrest was well known as a Memphis speculator and Mississippi gambler. He was for some time Captain of a boat which ran between Memphis and Vicksburg. As his fortune increased he engaged in plantation speculation, and became the nominal owner of two plantations not far from Goodrich's Landing, above Vicksburg, where he worked some hundred or more slaves. This was his status when the war broke out. He was known to his acquaintances as a man of obscure origin and low associations, a shrewd speculator, negro trader, and duelist, but a man of great energy and brute courage.

To the first call to arms in the South Forrest promptly responded, enlisting as a private in the first infantry regiment recruited at Memphis; but his qualities as horseman and fighter soon attracted the notice of his superior officers, and he was made Captain of a cavalry company. He took his first lesson in cavalry skirmishing on the line of Green River, when Buel advanced on Bowling Green in the Winter of 1862. From a Captaincy he rose to a Lieutenant-Colonelcy, and when Fort Donelson fell before Grant, Forrest was a senior Colonel commanding a brigade. On this occasion he performed his first notable exploit, for, refusing to surrender with the other forces in the fort, he headed his brigade in a charge through the Union lines, cut his way out, and safely withdrew his command to the mountains of East Tennessee.

Soon after he made a swift and stealthy march on Murfreesboro, and took the place by surprise. From that time until the close of the war he was essentially a ranger, and covered in his raids the whole territory from the Ohio River on the north to the Tombigbee on the south; from the mountains of North Carolina to the Valley of the Mississippi. He proved himself the most regularly successful of all the Southern cavalry leaders.

This was due as much to good fortune as his own talents. He never had a good officer sent against him, and he seldom attacked except where he greatly outnumbered his enemy. As a scientific commander, he was much the inferior of Wheeler or Stuart; but he had all the qualities of a guerrilla chieftain, and the history of his exploits abundantly proves that he displayed them. He was swift and daring in his advance, stubborn and defiant in retreat, cool and ready in face of temporary disaster, and skillful in wielding the large force he commanded. When in the height of his celebrity as a commander he was thus described: "In person, Forrest is a little over six feet in height, and strongly built; apparently about 38 years of age, in the perfection of vigorous manhood, insensible to fatigue, incapable alike of sympathy or fear.

The outlines of his face are handsome, and the expression is generally pleasant; but now and then, when roused a little, his eye lights with a gleam and his brow darkens with a frown which stamp him with the brand of Cain. He is a consummate horseman and a dead shot with the pistol; a spare eater and abstemious in his habits. His control over his men is absolute. He mingles familiarly with them, and is ready to talk with any of them on easy terms, but with his officers he is often exacting and savage." A story is related of his reprimanding a young Lieutenant with such severity that the latter, stung beyond endurance, drew his pistol. Forrest deliberately walked up to him, and using his great physical superiority to the uttermost, literally cut the young man to the ground with his bowie-knife, and then coolly wiping the bloody blade of the knife, mounted, and rode off as if nothing had happened.

It is in connection with one of the most atrocious and cold-blooded massacres that ever disgraced civilized warfare that his name will for ever be inseparably associated. "Fort Pillow Forrest" was the title which the deed conferred upon him, and by this he will be remembered by the present generation, and by it he will pass into history. The massacre occurred on the 12th of April, 1864. Fort Pillow is 65 miles above Memphis, and its capture was effected during Forrest's celebrated raid through Tennessee, a State which was at the time practically in possession of the Union forces. Gen. Sherman had started on an expedition from Vicksburg, in February, through Mississippi; he was to be supported by Gem. Smith with a cavalry column, which, marching from Memphis, was to join him at Meridian. Sherman's march from west to east across the State was so rapidly and skillfully done that it was a mere promenade.

The Confederate commander, Gen. Polk, could make no effective resistance to him, but he bent all his energies to preventing the junction of Smith's cavalry column with Sherman. For this purpose he ordered all his cavalry to join Forrest, and intrusted that commander with the task of heading off Smith. This was done most effectually, for the conduct of Gen. William Sooy Smith seems to have been marked from the start with utter inefficiency. His start from Memphis was made late enough to give Forrest time to collect all his forces for resistance; the march of the Union cavalry was an utterly disorganized one, so that when, on the 22d of February, it reached Okalona, 100 miles north of Meridian, discipline seems to have been utterly relaxed. Here Forrest's cavalry met them, and at the first charge the Union forces were practically routed.

Everything fell into utter confusion, and Smith had to retreat, pursued by the enemy for 10 days over the wasted country through which he had just advanced. Forrest now saw his opportunity for a raid into the heart of Tennessee. The garrisons there had been weakened by the concentration of forces for the Spring campaign, and he had nothing to fear in the way of a superior force. Late in March he passed into that State, and the route of his advance was marked by outrages and brutalities of the most cold-blooded character. He captured most of the small garrisons on his line of march, in each case summoning the defenders to surrender under a threat that if he had to storm the works he would give no quarter. On the 12th of April he appeared before Fort Pillow. This fort was garrisoned by 500 troops, about half of them colored. Forrest's force numbered about 5,000 or 6,000.

His first attack was a complete surprise, and the commanding officer was killed early in the engagement. Still the defenders fought so gallantly that at 2 o'clock the enemy had gained no material advantage. Forrest then sent in a flag of truce, demanding unconditional surrender. While the flag was flying, Forrest's men treacherously crept into positions which they had been unable to take by fight, (a trick they had played at other places,) and thus were in a situation to make the assault which soon followed under every advantage. After a short consultation, Major Bradford, on whom the command had devolved, sent word refusing to surrender. Instantly the bugles sounded the assault. The enemy were now within 100 yards of the fort, and at the sound they rushed on the works, shouting "No quarter! No quarter!"

The garrison was seized with a panic: the men threw down their arms and sought safety in flight toward the river, in the neighboring ravine, behind logs, bushes, trees, and in fact everywhere where there was a chance for concealment. It was in vain. The captured fort and its vicinity became a human shambles. Without discrimination of age or sex, men, women, and children, the sick and wounded in the hospitals, were butchered without mercy. The bloody work went on until night put a temporary stop to it; but it was renewed at early dawn, when the inhuman captors searched the vicinity of the fort, dragging out wounded fugitives and killing them where they lay. The whole history of the affair was brought out by a Congressional inquiry, and the testimony presents a long series of sickening, cold-blooded atrocities. Forrest reported his own loss at 20 killed and 60 wounded; and states that he buried 228 Federals on the evening of the assault.

Yet in the face of this he claimed that the Fort Pillow capture was "a bloody victory, only made a massacre by dastardly Yankee reporters." The news of the massacre aroused the whole country to a paroxysm of horror and fury. A force of 12,000 men was sent against Forrest, under Gen. Sturgis, who so wretchedly mismanaged the affair that he was utterly routed by him. Another column was sent against him in July, under A. J. Smith, which met with scarcely better success, and the next thing heard of Forrest was when, on the morning of Aug. 18, he made a sudden and daring raid through Memphis, escaping with small loss.

Since the war, Forrest has lived at Memphis, and his principal occupation seems to have been to try and explain away the Fort Pillow affair. He wrote several letters about it, which were published, and always had something to say about it in any public speech he delivered. He seemed as if he were trying always to rub away the blood stains which marked him. He spoke at the Union ratification meeting at Memphis in August, 1866; wrote a letter approving President Johnson's reconstruction policy in October of the same year; was at the Democratic National convention in June, 1868; spoke several times during the political campaign that year, counseling friendly feeling between the North and South; made several written and spoken defenses of his war record at that time, and distinguished himself again by challenging Gen. Kilpatrick to a duel.

The latter, who was also on the stump, had attacked Forrest with great severity, denouncing him as a butcher and a murderer. Forrest felt these reproaches so keenly that he sent a challenge. Kilpatrick replied that he would not fight a duel, but if he ever met Forrest, and the latter desired to do anything, he [Kilpatrick] would be ready. The outcome of this was that Forrest and Kilpatrick did meet somewhere in North Carolina, the latter going into the bar-room of the hotel where he was told Forrest was. Forrest was leaning against the bar. Kilpatrick brushed against him. Forrest looked up, recognized his enemy, turned and left the room, and that was the end of the matter. In December, 1873, Forrest had a short correspondence with Gen. Sherman on the prospects of a Cuban war.

Of late years, his views had undergone a considerable change. The guerrilla chieftain had softened down into the retired veteran, anxious, apparently, only for peace with everybody. He was in favor of promoting good feeling between the two sections, and by the terms of his address to his old comrades in arms, asking them to join in decorating the graves of the dead Union soldiers. His last notable public appearance was on the Fourth of July in Memphis, when he appeared before the colored people at their celebration, was publicly presented with a bouquet by them as a mark of peace and reconciliation, and made a friendly speech in reply. In this he once more took occasion to defend himself and his war record, and to declare that he was a hearty friend of the colored race. Gen. Forrest would be remembered only as a daring and successful guerrilla cavalry leader, were it not for the one great and indelible stain upon his name. It was evident that he felt this, as his constantly-repeated defenses of himself show.

His daring and recklessness gave him more eclat at one period than his military services were really entitled to. Gen. Wheeler's raid around the rear of Sherman's army was the work of the daring man and the scientific soldier; Gen. Forrest's sudden dash through Memphis, with no more result than the killing of a few men on either side, was the recklessness of the mere guerrilla chief-- which Forrest essentially was.
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0713.html

[Withnail]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '&')quot;Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
George Orwell, 1984

[Cog]

Nearly everyone in the country, both north and south were racists. Different time, different thinking.

"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position."

Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln/Douglas debates

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'N')early everyone in the country, both north and south were racists. Different time, different thinking.

"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position."

Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln/Douglas debates

[Sixstrings]

Opinion piece in the Denver Post:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')oel: Don't toss out Confederate history, too

In the politically correct rush to eliminate Confederate flags, let us hope that some will be saved. Slavery and the Civil War did happen, and it is important to keep symbols of the past, no matter how dark, bloody and distasteful.

Happy history is no longer the only history we record. Increasingly, historians and history museums are exploring darker events. History Colorado, for instance, at its Museum at 1200 Broadway in Denver, has an extensive exhibit on Amache, a tiny town in the southeast corner of Colorado. There, the U.S. government incarcerated over 8,000 Japanese, most of them U.S. citizens, during World War II.

That this was wrong and illegal was later acknowledged by President Ronald Reagan, who authorized reparations to survivors and their descendants. For a long time, Amache was forgotten as an inconvenient truth that our government can do wrong. Recently, the National Park Service designated Amache as a National Historic Landmark, the highest federal designation for historic sites.

...

Despite criticism from fans of happy history, exhibits at History Colorado also acknowledge mistreatment of natives, Hispanics and African-Americans. This is done in the hope that past prejudices might be dropped and fairer treatment awarded all people.

...

But Americans still have freedom of speech — and freedom to fly any flag they fancy.

Surely there is a place for Confederate flags, at least in museums. Hundreds of thousands of people pledged allegiance to that flag, and many died for it. Should they and the banner they fought under be obliterated from our national historical consciousness?

In Denver, a well-intentioned legislator suggested removing Sand Creek from the bronze plaque under the soldier statue on the west side of the State Capitol. It lists Sand Creek as one of the battles fought by Colorado soldiers. The lawmaker pointed out that Sand Creek was not a battle but a massacre of some 170 peaceful Arapaho and Cheyenne, mostly women and children, on their own reservation.

Fortunately, History Colorado had the good sense to discuss this issue with descendants of Sand Creek survivors. No, those Indians said, don't erase Sand Creek. They wanted everyone to remember what happened there. So the offensive "battle" remains to this day on the plaque. The exemplary resolution: Have American Indians install a plaque giving their version of what happened at Sand Creek. This should be a model for many communities.
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_28464509/dont-toss-out-confederate-history-too

[Sixstrings]

Now they're talking about the French fleur de lis:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he symbol of our city is a painful reminder for some.

"As an African I find it painful, and I think people whose ancestors were enslaved here may feel it even harder than I do as an African," Seck said.

That's right. The iconic symbol of our beloved city and our Saints actually has a troubled history, according to some historians.

The black code was a set of regulations adopted in Louisiana in 1724 from other French colonies around the world, meant to govern the state's slave population. Seck said those rules included branding slaves with the fleur de lis as punishment for running away.
http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2015/7/11/8932157/new-orleans-saints-fleur-de-lis-logo-offensive

[Cog]

Andrew Jackson owned slaves therefore it would be racist to acknowledge his existence much less talk about his battles.

[PrestonSturges]

One of my great great great (?) uncles died in one of those hideous Confederate death camps. But the thing that people in the south have a hard time understanding is that people north of the Mason-Dixon just don't give a shit about the Civil War. Sure, one of my ancestors died, but nobody in the north goes on about that sort of thing as if it happened last week, and the average person doesn't think of the Civil War even once a year. I think the average southerner would have a very hard time accepting that the rest of the country moved on generations ago. So when the flap about the confederate flag started, nobody in the north was saying "Ha ha! Now our victory will be complete!" They were really saying "Oh for fuck's sake, you have got to be kidding me!"

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'S')o when the flap about the confederate flag started, nobody in the north was saying "Ha ha! Now our victory will be complete!" They were really saying "Oh for fuck's sake, you have got to be kidding me!"

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'S')o when the flap about the confederate flag started, nobody in the north was saying "Ha ha! Now our victory will be complete!"

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'D')on't forget that during the Civil War a good percentage of people in the north were "Copperheads", i.e. Democrats who supported making peace with the south and letting them keep their slaves.

[Sixstrings]

It's pointless to go back and forth about "Democrats were the slavery party" etc.

Democratic Party and Republican party flipped ideologies, around the 1960s forward.

Not just about civil rights, but the overall big government versus small government divide. Jeffersonian Democrats were the small federal government party, and Republicans were always the federalists.

These two ideologies completely flipped.

Democrats are the big federal government party now, and Republicans are the small federal government / more local control / individualist party.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'I')t's pointless to go back and forth about "Democrats were the slavery party" etc

[C8]

The point of all this, as I have stressed over and over gain- is that there is no end in sight. No matter how many bodies are dug up and how many flags will be taken down the goal post will always be moved to a new "offensive" thing. Washington, Jefferson, etc. will also be next (slave owners), then Lincoln (who wanted to deport blacks). Then Woodrow Wilson (who was very racists) and pretty much all US presidents (who have almost all made remarks that can be interpreted as racists).

In many colleges, minority student groups are now talking about how the very presence of white students is harmful to them- no matter what these white students day or do. Student meetings and assemblies are happening in colleges public schools where white students are being told they can't attend (one principal had white students housed in classrooms during a black only assembly)

You will not find any condemnation of this from "respectable" minority middle class members. They do not attack the racism of their own like whites do. There is a double standard as to what "fairness" is.

White liberals cheering the take down of the Confederate flag may wish to consider that it probably won't stop with this- and they may become the next targets of a group of people who put ethnicity above principles.

Its incredibly petty to dig up somebody's grave. The mind that demands this is not a healthy one and not a mind that is ever secure or satisfied. This is what savages do.