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Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 11:32:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')
The way I see it is that it really is not a racist flag, but this is just something that can be done out of respect for people that are offended by it, and especially in light of the tragedy in Charleston.

But when it gets down to banning the sale of flags, pulling up war dead monuments, and banning gettysburg strategy video games -- uh, no.


1. Of course its a racist flag. The whole point of the confederacy was to preserve and extend the enslavement of black people, who southern Dems maintained were inferior to white people.

2. There is nothing wrong with current governments taking down war monuments to KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forest and other confederates. These monuments were erected by past southern governments to honor their heroes. The current southern governments have a perfect right to take them down now, as they no longer consider the same people to be heroes.

Its no different then the new governments of eastern Europe taking down all the Lenin and Marx and Stalin statues after the Russians and their lackeys were booted out of eastern Europe, or the Iraqis tearing down the statues of Saddam Hussein after his regime was toppled by the US invasion in 2004.

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Eastern Europeans tore down the Lenin statues when the Russians were booted out----its long past time for US southerners to show the same kind of gumption and tear down statues of Nathan Bedford Forest, founder of the KKK
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:15:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '2'). There is nothing wrong with current governments taking down war monuments to KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forest and other confederates.


"Government" is comprised of representatives elected by citizens which have constitutional rights.

57% of Americans that value history in its entirety, are not racist, and neither am I.

You can go all through American history, LITERALLY ALL THROUGH IT, and if you want to take everyone out of it that is problematic -- viewed through a modern times prism -- then there won't be any names, in the history books, at all.

All the Indian wars, all the mistreatment of native americans, the mexican-american war, on and on. Would you remove statues of President Andrew Jackson? Jefferson? Washington? Teddy Roosevelt? LBJ? Ronald Reagan? Every figure there has ever been, is problematic, viewed through a 2015 lens. The answer with history is just presenting all the history and the lessons of it, not tearing down monuments and museums.

My state has its OWN history, the South is actually not a monolith and each state has a unique deep history of its own, and had a different experience in the confederacy years and then after that, and the civil rights era too.

As far as I know, we don't even have any statues of problematic generals. But on some of these statues, in the other states, if it's a guy that started the KKK or was a very bad dude then yep I'd be for taking that down.

But NOT obelisks to local kids that went off to war, the veterans.

Anyhow, we live in a democratic constitutional republic and if the PC stuff goes too far then that could push me to voting Republican, along with the rest of the swing vote. I'll watch what happens with my own state, I've voted solid Democrat for 8 years now but I think I may start voting Republican in state and local elections.

I'll watch my local news and see if Democrats are wanting to do anything PC crazy, like pulling up our 120 year old veterans monument, or messing with our historical sites. I don't mind renamed streets or emblems coming out or flags going down, just the monuments we have and the historical sites.

(where I live, our streets are named after spanish conquistadors :lol: And then the rest of the streets are just named after the pioneers that settled the town, and yes it was in the confederate era, but no they didn't have much to do with the war other than the kids that went off to fight in the army, and a lot of them died. And their families put a respectful obelisk up, in their memory, a hundred years ago.)

P.S. and let me say another thing, I'm just speaking for my own area, but if we didn't have these historical societies back in the 1920sish, preserving our history about the pioneers and the confederate era, then we wouldn't even know our history today, it would have been lost and forgotten and nobody would know who settled the darn place or anything about it.

Are all you guys against history, in general? Should the South just be totally wiped, or what is it that you want -- you want anything "confederate" literally removed but then you can leave in the other things about the people from those times?

History buffs are important, in a society. We had history buffs in my town in the 1920s and thank goodness we had them, they PRESERVED THE HISTORICAL RECORD, just the actual facts and stories of the time, who settled the town, what the local area's experience was in the confederacy years, and then these same historical societies put up monuments to the conquistadors too.

And then starting around the 90s, people became a lot more aware of native american issues and how the history didn't treat them right -- and we started adding native american historical sites and museum exhibits too, and preserving indian mounds etc.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Keith_McClary » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:40:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')
Birmingham to remove 110 year old confederate veterans' monument, will donate it to heritage group that will place it somewhere else


Good news.

This is no different then Ukraine and the rest of the countries in eastern Europe tearing down all the statues of Lenin and Stalin after the Russians and their lackeys were booted out.
Or the US tearing down Ba'athist monuments, or the Taliban and ISIS tearing down pagan idols.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Tanada » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:58:08

I see a key difference, in Ukraine they blamed Russia for their situation right after Russia left. In Birmingham they are blaming the Civil War for their troubles 50 years after Jim Crow laws were wiped off the books.

This is much more like the Taliban blowing up statues of Buddha, it is an attempt at repressing some sectors of the history to promote a current group in power today.

History doesn't repeat but it rhymes because human nature is consistent. Leaders confident in their power do not destroy the monuments of the past, they use them to teach.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 13:11:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'O')r the US tearing down Ba'athist monuments, or the Taliban and ISIS tearing down pagan idols.


Ultimately it's up to the electorate, in every town and state, if they want to preserve history or take down a monument / museum / put a new subdivision up on a civil war battlefield.

And then the history of the civil war, the massive cost and folly of it all, AND THE LESSONS of it including the horrors of slavery, are forgotten.

Bottom line on it, the rebel flag means different things to different people:

* Yes, horrific KKK have used the flag. So to some, that flag is just a sign of hate. Just as some middle easterners may see an American flag, and have nothing but distaste for it and they want to burn it, they don't see any good in the American flag at all -- because they feel like all they've been is hurt by it.

* It's a "redneck" thing, but they are not racists and would not discriminate. It's not right to put country people / "rednecks" down -- the truth is that "rednecks" and red state folks have fought in every war this country has ever had, and right now at this very moment they make up a vast majority of the nation's military. We would not have a military at all, to protect the nation, if it were just up to enlistments from connecticut. "Rednecks" shouldn't be put down, just because they are country, there are country folks in upstate new york too and out west and everywhere.

* To some progressives, it's more than they think it's racist -- they see it as "redneck" conservative stubbornness to social change, like gay marriage or transgender or climate change or whatever it is, so yeah a progressive up north has about 30 different reasons to hate the confederate flag. But not even all rednecks care about gay marriage or whatever, or a minimum wage hike, it really is just their Southern culture and history.

* To some, the "rebel flag" is a sign of cultural rebellion, but not racism. To some, it's a "tea party" thing and means less government. Like the African American woman said, in that video I linked.

* Some are actually honoring direct ancestors; they're aware of their family history.

* To others, (this would be me), there's nothing wrong when it's just Southern culture and nascar and country music or Lynard Skynard or the dukes of hazzard, when it has no racism, and it's okay in an historical context -- such as flying over an old fort that's a museum now, and the fort also flies the British and Spanish and every other flag that ever flew over it.

And also, there is NOTHING WRONG with civil war re-enactors. They're just history buffs and honestly are not racist. My town has medieval fairs too, but that does not mean we believe in serfdom and inquisitions and all the horrors of the middle ages.

It's just history, folks, there's good and bad and right and wrong, in all of it.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 13:53:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'I') see a key difference, in Ukraine they blamed Russia for their situation right after Russia left. In Birmingham they are blaming the Civil War for their troubles 50 years after Jim Crow laws were wiped off the books.


Exactly.

My biggest issue is just that civil war strategy games on the computer, should not be banned. Flag sales should never have been banned, that's not even American to be banning anything political or historical no matter how much someone doesn't like it, or how much it is misused -- there are other ways to fight terrorism and hate, rather than banning a flag or a koran for that matter.

Conservatives always say "guns don't kill people, people kill people" -- I would add to that, "the dukes of hazzard does not kill people, and neither do museums or veterans' monuments or flags."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is much more like the Taliban blowing up statues of Buddha, it is an attempt at repressing some sectors of the history to promote a current group in power today.


Yep, exactly. It's extremism -- extremism is not cool, just because it is from the far left, or when it is in RESPONSE to extremism.

I'm for taking the flags down at capitols and doing some other things short of veterans' memorials, OUT OF RESPECT for the tragedy in Charleston. But for goodness sake do not ban the flags on ebay, and CNN should not be bothering some mom and pop confederate belt buckle store, and it's a real problem if suddenly ALL people have lost rights and it's unacceptable for historical societies and civil war re-enactors to keep doing their thing, when they don't hurt anybody.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')istory doesn't repeat but it rhymes because human nature is consistent. Leaders confident in their power do not destroy the monuments of the past, they use them to teach.


Agreed, you said in two sentences what took me 40 pages to say.

Like I said 3 times already, I saw a presentation at Stone Mountain one time with the laser light show and how they INCORPORATED the civil rights movement and ended it with the American flag and patriotism and it was a nice message. THAT was "teaching," with history, and reconciliation not division.

Charleston tragedy response started out really good, how it should be, when 15,000 people marched together. But what was wrong, was ebay and apple doing what they did, and then nascar, then tvland banning dukes of hazzard.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 15:59:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')S & confederate flag burning sparks outrage, tension in New York

A group called 'Disarm NYPD' has attempted to set light to the Confederate and American flags, which many claim are symbols of slavery. RT's Marina Portnaya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi3LHq1liq8


I'd seen this thing in the news, that there was a group in NY that was going to burn the "confederate flag" but then they decided to burn the American flag too, then that caused outrage and a lot of people showed up to counter protest that.

So that goalpost moved awful fast, from the confederate to the American flag. The group says the American flag "is a symbol of slavery."

This was a thing in Florida where a group was going to burn the confederate flag:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne Guy's Opinion of Confederate Flag Burning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqE8OQUqcCk


Protests and counter protests in South Carolina:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')rawl Breaks Out Between Supporters & Protestors Over The Confederate Flag Outside The South Carolina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5uKjKNzyE8


Meanwhile, as far as just HISTORY goes -- American history -- there are actually one million civil war reenactment hobbyists in the country:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')agnificent Obsessions - 17 - Civil War Reenactment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXhb9dNEIRc


Tampa Florida has the largest confederate flag in the world. Mayor of Tampa would like it to come down, says it's a "symbol of hate and treason," but it's on private property:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')ampa mayor wants large Confederate flag moved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe9hByIzxq8
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Keith_McClary » Thu 02 Jul 2015, 16:51:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'O')r the US tearing down Ba'athist monuments, or the Taliban and ISIS tearing down pagan idols.


Ultimately it's up to the electorate, in every town and state, if they want to preserve history or take down a monument / museum / put a new subdivision up on a civil war battlefield.


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BTW, that belonged to the Iraqi people. It could have been sold for $$$ to a museum or collector, of al least for scrap bronze.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Fri 03 Jul 2015, 05:21:48

Jim Webb enters the democratic nomination race:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]http://www.readthehook.com/files/wordpress-images/news-webb.jpg[/img]

"...Outside my faith and my family, my greatest love will always be for this amazing country that for more than 200 years has given so many people the opportunity to have a good life, raise a family, live in freedom, and achieve their dreams."

...

Dear friends:
After many months of thought, deliberation and discussion, I have decided to seek the office of the Presidency of the United States.
https://www.facebook.com/IHeardMyCountryCalling


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Jim Webb jumps in: Confederate flag supporter announces bid for the Democratic nomination

In an over 2,000 word long post on his official campaign website, Webb2016.com, Webb, 69, promised “a fresh approach to solving the problems” he claimed “too often unnecessarily divide us.” Borrowing the language of Progressive populist Elizabeth Warren, Webb called it the role of elected officials to “ensure a level playing field.”

Webb described the American Dream as “unending opportunity at the top if you put things together and you make it, absolute fairness along the way, and a safety net underneath you if you fall on hard times or suffer disability or as you reach your retirement years.”

But returned to his moderate roots later in the announcement, writing, “We need a President who understands leadership, who has a proven record of actual accomplishments, who can bring about bipartisan solutions, who can bring people from both sides to the table to get things done.”
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/02/jim_webb_jumps_in_confederate_flag_supporter_announces_bid_for_the_democratic_nomination/


His military service:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')e served as a platoon commander with Delta Company, 1st Battalion 5th Marines. He was awarded the Navy Cross for heroism in Vietnam, the second highest decoration in the Navy and Marine Corps. Webb also was awarded the Silver Star, two Bronze Stars, and two Purple Hearts.[21] After returning from Vietnam he was assigned to Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, as an instructor for OCS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Webb


On the confederate flag issue, of everybody, Jim Webb had the best statement:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Confederate Battle Flag has wrongly been used for racist and other purposes in recent decades. It should not be used in any way as a political symbol that divides us.

But we should also remember that honorable Americans fought on both sides in the Civil War, including slaveholders in the Union Army from states such as Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware, and that many non-slave holders fought for the South. It was in recognition of the character of soldiers on both sides that the federal government authorized the construction of the Confederate Memorial 100 years ago, on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery.

This is a time for us to come together, and to recognize once more that our complex multicultural society is founded on the principle of mutual respect.


I don't know much about Webb, but I'm open minded as far as who I'd vote for. Somebody that understands the South would be nice -- that no, it is not all racists and no, you cannot take Robert E. Lee and Southern history out of America and west point and the institutions of the US military.

Also, somebody that would be a good commander in chief and could handle things, like ISIS etc. And if it's a Democrat too, and union guy, that maybe would protect social security and have pro middle / working class policies then that would be good.

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I'm not sure what this is about, on the left is Webb's old senate opponent:

Image

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]‘Reagan Democrat’ Jim Webb: A moderate challenger to Hillary?

Considered a "Reagan Democrat," Webb is a political moderate, with many of his views more in line with those of Republicans than his fellow Democrats. In 2009, he warned President Barack Obama that his push for health care legislation would end in “disaster,” though Webb eventually voted for it. Webb is concerned with military personnel and his economic position has been described as populist. He is less focused on social equality.

“I decided to run as a Democrat because I happen to strongly believe in Jacksonian democracy. There needs to be one party that very clearly represents the interests of working people,” he told Real Clear Politics in an earlier interview.
http://rt.com/usa/271345-jim-webb-announces-candidacy/
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Sat 04 Jul 2015, 08:09:45

Gettysburg national park rangers say they've always presented both sides and the whole history, and that the flag has a place on monuments and exhibits.

The gift shop removed individual confederate flags, but still sells rebel flag bikinis, and then coffee cups and shirts can have the confederate flag if they display the American flag too:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Reenactors Say Confederate Flag Is History, Not Hate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VDkBAy_gHo


After banning the confederate flag, NASCAR is now pulling out of anything related to Donald Trump, because of Trump's controversial comments on illegal immigration:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ASCAR Distances Itself From Donald Trump After Remarks
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nascar-distances-itself-donald-trump-after-remarks-n386551


A major NASCAR sponsor ceo said that Trump "is a bigot and a racist:"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n his letter to France, Lemonis writes ... "Last year, our NASCAR Camping World Truck Series Awards Ceremony was held at the Trump National Doral in Miami, and due to recent and ongoing blatantly bigoted and racist comments from Donald Trump in regards to immigrants of the United States, I would like to inform you that I will not, nor will any representative of Camping World, participate or attend in the ceremonial event if it is held at any Trump property."

He adds, "I would hope that the entire NASCAR organization would agree with my sentiments."
http://www.tmz.com/2015/07/03/donald-trump-nascar-camping-world-marcus-lemonis-boycotting/


Meanwhile, NASCAR fans bring the flag anyway:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Bakers condemned Roof’s actions, but Glen likened the banning rules to gun control.

“If the guy had been holding a Bible, would everyone want to ban a bible or something? Where does it stop and common sense take over a little bit? This is because we have one idiot that held the Confederate flag instead of the American… or the bible. (It) didn’t hurt anybody. It’s just like trying to outlaw guns. It’s not the guns that do the killing, it’s the idiots that shoot them.”

Others at Daytona said much the same — that asking people to remove their flags isn’t right, and promising to buy a fresh one if they did, Click Orlando reported.

Since NASCAR announced its decision — backed by the sports’ most famous drivers — it has set up a program that will let fans exchange their Confederate standard for an American; no one had taken NASCAR up on the offer at Daytona.

This isn’t a firm ban, but tracks can declare the flag as offensive, and if someone complains, those flying it would have to take it down.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2223166/nascars-confederate-flag-ban-is-being-met-with-defiance-at-daytona-speedway/


So.. the rule at NASCAR is if someone complains a flag is offensive, then they will ask the flag-owner to put away the flag.

Now -- what about a gay pride rainbow flag? If someone says that is offensive, at a NASCAR event, would NASCAR ask the person to put away the rainbow pride flag?

And I've spoken out for gay rights ALL THE TIME, on this forum, but the reverse is true as well -- you can't have rainbow flags then tell red state folks their flag is offensive and must go.

My own views on the confederate flag line up with the people in that gettysburg national park video. I wouldn't have one, but YES it is an historical flag and regional thing -- NOT racism -- just like Texas with the "alamo" and Davy Crocket and Sam Houston and their Lone Star Republic thing.

The confederate flag's entireity is not what Apple corporation's CEO decides it is, nor TV Land, nor CNN and MSNBC, not ebay nor amazon nor walmart nor any other elite -- while ignoring the rights of tens of millions of people.

Happy 4th, by the way!

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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Withnail » Sat 04 Jul 2015, 10:19:58

I'm against the destruction of historical monuments.

All monuments to the South's ultimately failed military campaign should remain.

You can't just destroy stuff like that in the UK. They would be listed as of historical interest and thus cannot be touched.

Isn't there an American Historical Associaton or something? This should be stopped now.

ETA: yes there is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_H ... ssociation
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Keith_McClary » Sat 04 Jul 2015, 13:55:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Withnail', 'I')'m against the destruction of historical monuments.

All monuments to the South's ultimately failed military campaign should remain.

You can't just destroy stuff like that in the UK. They would be listed as of historical interest and thus cannot be touched.

Isn't there an American Historical Associaton or something? This should be stopped now.

ETA: yes there is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_H ... ssociation

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is just the latest in a long line of international debates over how to preserve (or destroy) Nazi monuments. The arguments for and against have evolved dramatically since the end of World War II. In the beginning—in 1945, that is—the Allies ordered all Nazi architecture to be demolished. But as they worked to gain control over the ruined city, they broke their own rules when necessary—for example, in preserving Tempelhof Airport, which was necessary for the Berlin Airlift. Likewise, other Nazi structures were preserved, albeit scraped of all remnants of the Third Reich. After all, functional buildings were valuable in a war-torn city.

Later, as Germany grappled with its identity in the 1960s and 70s, the perception of Nazi architecture began to change. Many politicians still argued that it was necessary to demolish existing buildings completely (leading to the partial destruction of the Nuremberg rally grounds in 1966) but others wondered whether that would only enforce a kind of architectural martyrdom—whether by destroying the past, they’d actually be memorializing it. What followed was an era of historic preservation, with many government agencies restoring Nazi buildings to their former architectural glory, minus the swastikas and flags.
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http://gizmodo.com/should-germany-spend ... 1245820655
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Withnail » Sat 04 Jul 2015, 15:11:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Withnail', 'I')'m against the destruction of historical monuments.

All monuments to the South's ultimately failed military campaign should remain.

You can't just destroy stuff like that in the UK. They would be listed as of historical interest and thus cannot be touched.

Isn't there an American Historical Associaton or something? This should be stopped now.

ETA: yes there is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_H ... ssociation

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is just the latest in a long line of international debates over how to preserve (or destroy) Nazi monuments. The arguments for and against have evolved dramatically since the end of World War II. In the beginning—in 1945, that is—the Allies ordered all Nazi architecture to be demolished. But as they worked to gain control over the ruined city, they broke their own rules when necessary—for example, in preserving Tempelhof Airport, which was necessary for the Berlin Airlift. Likewise, other Nazi structures were preserved, albeit scraped of all remnants of the Third Reich. After all, functional buildings were valuable in a war-torn city.

Later, as Germany grappled with its identity in the 1960s and 70s, the perception of Nazi architecture began to change. Many politicians still argued that it was necessary to demolish existing buildings completely (leading to the partial destruction of the Nuremberg rally grounds in 1966) but others wondered whether that would only enforce a kind of architectural martyrdom—whether by destroying the past, they’d actually be memorializing it. What followed was an era of historic preservation, with many government agencies restoring Nazi buildings to their former architectural glory, minus the swastikas and flags.
Image
http://gizmodo.com/should-germany-spend ... 1245820655


Yes indeed, the Nazi Air Ministry building is still in use today.

Doesn't mean Germans today are Nazis.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Withnail » Sat 04 Jul 2015, 15:19:05

Also the Confederate flag is not the equivalent of the swastika.

Blacks may have been slaves but the South did not have a campaign of industrialised genocide against blacks.

Russia had white slaves, 'serfs', for most of the 19th century as well.

Barbary coast pirates, Arabs and Turks had white and black slaves.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Quinny » Sat 04 Jul 2015, 19:11:18

I'm with Withnail on this - who cares a jot about dead people who were racist.

It would be a lot more productive to bury live people who are!
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Sun 05 Jul 2015, 05:41:30

Animated map shows the spread of 13,000 civil war monuments / veterans' memorials put up mostly a hundred years ago, all over the south and the north:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Landscape of Civil War Commemoration
How, when, and where the North and South memorialize the conflict.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/07/civil_war_historical_markers_a_map_of_confederate_monuments_and_union_ones.html


This article is from two years ago, 106 civil war era / 19th century graves in Colorado smashed and defaced by vandals:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'V')andals damage Civil War memorial statue, 106 headstones in Longmont's Mountain View cemetery

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A damaged statue from the Civil War veterans monument is seen without a head, Monday, Aug. 12, 2013, at Mountain View Cemetery in Longmont.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_23845347/vandals-damage-civil-war-memorial-statue-106-headstones


Again, that's from 2013 and who knows who did that -- may have been methhead druggies or just anarchist twentysomething kids / teenagers.

But just to illustrate, this kind of thing is no good. Once a teenager destroys an historical statue, then that history -- which stood for almost two centuries -- is gone forever and all time.

EVERYBODY should be against destruction of monuments and vandalism and defacing monuments. Most especially graves (for goodness sake), and war dead memorials. That's when left wing anarchism just goes too far, the "tear it all down" thing. It's not so bad when they are spray painted ("tagged), that can be repaired, but if it gets to smashing headstones and statues up then that is just gone forever and that's like those idiots in the taliban and Syria. The taliban smashed up ancient buddhas. In the middle east, ISIS smashed up ancient Babylonian era statues.

Over time, people will look back into history and want to highlight different things about it, and it's really all about what is going on TODAY. The answer is to build MORE monuments -- don't tear down the old ones.

A place like England wouldn't have any history at all, if they tore it all down -- because yes, there is some bad and sometimes some very bad, in every square inch of British history. I'm a history buff in general -- I watched a whole BBC documentary series on the British monarchs. I never realized what a horrible guy William the Conqueror was, before I watched that. That Norman lord really TERRORIZED England. He did a scorched earth, burn-all-the-villages-down campaign, all across that country.

And then vikings, they traumatized the British isles for centuries -- should all viking history be banned? Or are we modern people, and we understand history and people have some sense and if we go to a medieval fair it does not actually mean we think vikings were good people (in modern view) or that we want to bring back serfs and feudalism and all the middle ages?

If one goes to a Catholic church today, does that mean you support all the awful things in the church's complicated history?

This is our American history. If you pull up the veterans' obelisks today, then tomorrow it will be the Jefferson Memorial. Build MORE museums, and add MORE exhibits -- don't tear museums down or get a little communist Mao red book frenzy going on where somehow you have to sanitize history and re-write the history books all the sudden in 2015.

There is GOOD and there is BAD, in ALL our ancestors -- whatever country you are from.

Slavery is not quite akin to the holocaust and nazis -- Great Britain had slavery too, all over the carribbean with the sugar plantations on Nevis and Barbados and all of that, and in Jamaica too. And for goodness sake Americans were British before they were Americans, it was actually British that began slavery in the Americas.

The French had slavery too, in Haiti and all over the caribbean and in Louisiana.

The Portuguese were massive into slavery too, world wide, and Brazil was actually the last nation to finally outlaw it in 1888.

Slavery was horrible, but don't just pick on just the South. The truth is that even back then, and even going back to Thomas Jefferson and the Revolution, people struggled with the issue of slavery. It was a tremendous moral problem and economic problem and society struggled with it for hundreds of years. There were abolitionists that were morally right -- yet then they too would have divisions, with A LOT OF RACISM IN THE NORTH regarding black folks, and NORTHERNERS would question how many rights black folks should have.

There is still racism today -- IN THE NORTH, UP NORTH. I'm tellin you guys, where I live the only people I hear that are blatantly bigoted are often Italian American transplants FROM NEW YORK. (I'm not saying they're bad people either, but picture the "Sopranos" show and that's how they talk, it really shocks me when I hear it and I don't like it because I am no bigot. And it's anecdotal but I'm just telling you my actual life experience.)

So yes, there are still racial problems today.

If you look at something like a prison -- what do they all do, they separate into ethnic and racial groups and then they have tensions with each other.

But the answer to it is not to dig up ancestors from 150 years ago.

About the civil war, in general -- the truth is that the union had 5 slave holding states in it. There were slave-owning soldiers and generals in the union army, as well. And black folks fought for the north, and they fought in the confederate army too.

The fact of history is that they had congressional hearings and investigations right after the civil war, still in the 1800s, and they were trying to figure out what the hell caused the civil war -- and these were the veterans of the actual civil war, and even they couldn't figure it out.

And here we are still arguing about it today.

But people should remember what was already done a long time ago -- look at Lincoln's example -- magnanimous in victory, and forgiveness. After all, the union fought the war TO KEEP SOUTHERNERS IN THE UNION, it wasn't just to utterly wipe out the South for goodness sake. This was a family fight.

There was reconciliation, after the war. At one point, at a commemoration, old veterans from the north and the south met at gettysburg and hugged each other.

The fact of history is that while the great moral abolitionist cause had its roots in new england, and yes of course they were right, these same people up north also screwed up Reconstruction really bad. The US government didn't do much for all the newly free people, they just freed them then that was it and they forgot about them. And then, slavery actually CONTINUED in the states that had sided with the union for some years after the civil war, up until the constitutional amendment was finally passed. The emancipation proclamation actually only ended slavery in the South, not the union.

Anyhow -- slavery was horrible and wrong, and it's a stain on the British too and it's a stain on the French as well, and the Spanish and the Protugeuse and Brazilians too.

The truth about all of this, and yeah I keep coming to "judgement of solomon" conclusions but that's actually where truth is found -- is that EVERYONE is correct. Yes, if you know history then you know that slavery was the great dividing political issue of the day but IT IS ALSO TRUE there were a lot of the typical "red state / blue state" stuff going on too.

Both things are true, northern and southern divisions actually WENT BACK ALL THE WAY TO THE REVOLUTION and early republic. Hamilton and the national bank, versus Jefferson. Etc. etc. etc.

It was all red state blue state stuff, whigs and small government democrats. Federalists strong government on one side, limited government people on the other side.

Racism and bigotry are evil, but left wing "climate change denier jail" and book burning extremist intolerant stuff is not good either, both are bad.

Truth is in the middle. And speaking for myself, I very much enjoy history about Frederick Douglas and the underground railroad and Hariet Beacher Stowe, as much as I do confederate history -- it's just all history, guys. MLK is an American hero, Frederick Douglas is too, and Lincoln is our greatest hero in history next to Washington and the founders. Lincoln saved the union.

I'm certainly glad the union one, back then. That would have been awful, a divided nation forever, and America couldn't have done all the great things it did.

You don't want to have a weak confederation of anything, that's what Europe is -- that can't survive.

On the other hand -- we are always going to have this kind of tensions and interplay, between strong central society / government-focused solutions, versus small government individualism.

And the last thing that I'll say is people against confederate history need to take a hard look at racism and bigotry in the people up North in those times, as well. And I'd also say that people in the South do need to be aware of how horrible slavery was and the Jim Crow era, etc.

More monuments, more history, more education, not less.

And our political leaders should be bringing people together and not making divisions, not making things political like it's trying to ignore and wipe out all "tea party" type concerns. We're supposed to be a multicultural society that respects everyone. Multiculturalism includes "rednecks" as well, if they are not racist.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Sun 05 Jul 2015, 08:11:58

Flag rally in Texas:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')onfederate Flag rally draws 100 to Houston mall

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"They're trying to take our history away," said Justin L., who declined to give his full last name but said he is with the Texas Coal Rollers Society, a diesel truck club. "We're trying to make a movement, trying to encourage people to keep flying what they do because it's the history of this country."

He said flying the flag is not racist.

"It's not hate, man, it's just heritage," he said. "It's what our country was founded on so we want to keep it going ... don't give in to them."

The rally, dubbed by some as Operation Save The Flag..
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Confederate-Flag-rally-draws-100-to-Houston-mall-6366533.php#photo-8259665


(for those that may not know, the "come and take it" cannon flag is an historical flag from the Texas "lone star" republic.)

Guys -- I honestly feel like it is the LEFT WING that has started this sh*t. :(

It's just a big kettle of sh*t, and it's like the media and the political leadership has just stoked it up and got it going when that is wrong.

It's the LEFT that started all this. Banning civil war strategy games on iphones, banning dukes of hazzard from tv, nascar telling folks they can't have a rebel flag on their RV.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Black Youth Project calls for removal of Confederate symbols on Independence Day

NEW ORLEANS —Burying divisive symbols of America's past is the mission for several people who gathered this Fourth of July in downtown New Orleans.

As the debate continues in some southern states as it pertains to renaming monuments that were named after Civil War-era generals and figures, the head of the National Urban League has an idea as to what New Orleans should do.

City leaders are discussing Confederate symbols and monuments across New Orleans, including the statue of Robert E. Lee that is prominently displayed in the CBD.

Marching, chanting and exercising their rights on Independence Day, dozens hit the streets calling for the removal of symbols representing the country's past.

The New Orleans chapter of the Black Youth Project 100 held what the group calls a "Confederate Flag Funeral and Procession Against White Supremacy."

"We're talking about the fact that we live in a city where our tax dollars finance monuments to the people that enslaved our ancestors," said Quess with the BYP.
http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news/new-orleans/black-youth-project-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-symbols-on-independence-day/33996930


(the best answer is MORE history, not just "tearing down old monuments")

Here's my opinion: if there are town meetings and "public comment" periods and the whole thing is a deliberated process and NOT JUST A WAVE OF PC ACROSS THE WHOLE NATION, then ok.

Honestly it should be referendums. That would be democratic. And despite the protest in the above article, polls show that really only 33% of black folks are for even so much as renaming streets. They didn't even poll about monuments, that number would have to be less.

Some kind of referendum would be the most fair.

There should be a public referendum in the city of new orleans. But legally, this is really decided across the country by city councils and county commissions and then state legislatures. I think referendums would be better, but anyway, it should be decided democratically but should be slow enough to be studied and get all the public comment in, not just a big PC wave and just everyone act like America is all one corporation and it's a PC thing where something has to just all be banned overnight.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Plantagenet » Sun 05 Jul 2015, 12:26:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')
The New Orleans chapter of the Black Youth Project 100 held what the group calls a "Confederate Flag Funeral and Procession Against White Supremacy."

"We're talking about the fact that we live in a city where our tax dollars finance monuments to the people that enslaved our ancestors," said Quess with the BYP.


Mr. Quess has a valid point.

UP here in Alaska we had a voting district that was named a century ago after a Confederate general who later became a US Senator from some southern state. The governor of Alaska just yesterday renamed the voting district with an Alutiiq word that means "big mountain" and no one complained.
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Sun 05 Jul 2015, 12:48:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'M')r. Quess has a valid point.

UP here in Alaska we had a voting district that was named a century ago after a Confederate general who later became a US Senator from some southern state. The governor of Alaska just yesterday renamed the voting district with an Alutiiq word that means "big mountain" and no one complained.


It's up to New Orleans voters what they want to do.

If this were to become an issue in my town, where I live, then I would vote against whatever candidate wants to take down the 120 year old veterans memorial that we have. That's my vote and my choice, with no bigotry in my heart at all, and others can vote how they wish.

As a voter, I would prefer to see monuments remain intact, and our national parks.

I'd prefer to see MORE museum exhibits, MORE monuments and MORE history -- not just tearing down the old, but add to it with new things.
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Re: Let's dig up dead people because they are racist

Postby Sixstrings » Mon 06 Jul 2015, 09:55:20

Volunteer firefighter suspended in Minnesota, after he put a confederate flag on the truck he drove in the town's 4th of July parade. He said it was protesting political correctness going too far:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]https://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/albert-lea-confederate-flag-twitter.jpg?w=420&h=236[/img]

“I take full responsibility for what I did,” Nielsen said.

Volunteer firefighter Brian Nielsen says he didn’t mean to offend anyone when he attached a Confederate flag onto a city of Hartland fire truck during this past Friday’s parade in nearby Albert Lea.

“Probably shouldn’t have done it with our fire truck,” Nielsen said.

He says he doesn’t even own a Confederate flag. He borrowed it from a friend because he feels politicians have gone too far to please some voters.

“Where are they going to stop? We’ve got to change everything, we’ve got to change history,” Nielsen said.

Many people in this city of 300 told WCCO they support Nielsen, a volunteer fireman for the last 10 years in a city that has only 18. Some parade watchers were offended.

The city suspended him after hundreds of people saw an image on social media that’s always stirred up mixed emotions.

...

“Black and white we are all one, there is no color. I’ve got a black stepbrother nieces and nephews,” Nielsen said.

He says he will have to have a conversation with them about what’s happened. In a weekend that’s already been full of apologies for Nielsen.

“I don’t want it to be a circus I’m apologetic to citizens of Hartland if that’s the case,” Nielsen said.
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/07/05/man-talks-of-flying-confederate-flag-at-albert-lea-parade/
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