PeakOil is You
You're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authority
Re: You're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authori
by Pops » Sun 15 Feb 2015, 09:49:43
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'I') do not think it was inevitable.
I didn't phrase that correctly I guess, my point was that it is inevitable that this thread turns into old farts saying "kids nowaday" are disrespectful and lack discipline. Because old farts have always thought that about kids.
But back to the generational theory.
I think it fits this thread nicely because the intergenerational conflict (or at least the roles played by the different generations) are central to the thread and the theory. If you've never heard of it the idea is there are 4 periods 20-30 years long (correct me)
one is the high point, which would be the post WWII war boom - where institutions are strong and individualism weak, wealth was spread more equitable than anytime before or since
the next is the revolutionary (awakening?) period where institutions are attacked and or corrupted - this correlates to the counterculture, civil rights period of the 60-70s;
then the 3rd period (I can't remember the name of) but it is where individualism is strongest and institutions weakest - that would be now I'd guess, culture wars, Greed Is Good, even US conservatives are split.
Finally the crisis period, which I'm sure true believers thought was signaled by the lesser depression of '08, but which turned out to be just a hiccup compared to past crises, so either this phase is dragging out longer or the theory is bunk, LOL.
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The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: You're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authori
by onlooker » Sun 15 Feb 2015, 11:56:04
Good summary Pops, well this crisis period should last for the foreseeable future and be characterized by the complete collapse of traditional institutions and replaced by ??. That will depend upon how severe this conjunction of economic and environmental crisis is. I can envision a wide range of outcomes but one thing seems clear their will be radical and extreme changes in everything because in no small part we can anticipate at lease to a certain degree a die-off. Chaos will reign supreme for awhile then hopefully we will strive forward all together with a common purpose and cooperation so the issue of authority will not be so keen but individualism will have to be subordinate to the all-encompassing goal of restoring some sort of cohesive society or civilization.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
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Re: You're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authori
by evilgenius » Sun 15 Feb 2015, 12:53:40
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('forbin', 'Y')ou're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authority
Hmm, factors
* Authority has made a few blunders - reporting of which is greater and spread more
* Acidic reporting in MSM
* Internet - the good, the bad and the down right fradulent are a click away
* Emphasise on the freedom of you and your ideas above all others .
* Emphasise on we are all equal ( when clearly we're not ) confused with equal opportunity
I am clear that the last bullet point will upset some but give it some thought please , given the factors of genetics and how each of us through out our lives has been subject to different enviromental imputs .... leads to
* individualism
* Same As Yesterday - its claimed that most people want exciting and adventurous lives when actually all they want is tomorrow to be same as today .
Forbin
Hmm, factors
* Authority has made a few blunders - reporting of which is greater and spread more
* Acidic reporting in MSM
* Internet - the good, the bad and the down right fradulent are a click away
* Emphasise on the freedom of you and your ideas above all others .
* Emphasise on we are all equal ( when clearly we're not ) confused with equal opportunity
I am clear that the last bullet point will upset some but give it some thought please , given the factors of genetics and how each of us through out our lives has been subject to different enviromental imputs .... leads to
* individualism
* Same As Yesterday - its claimed that most people want exciting and adventurous lives when actually all they want is tomorrow to be same as today .
Forbin
It depends upon how you look at equality as to what your answer will be concerning the point about whether we are all equal. You see, you can compare yourself in lock-step fashion to another person, or you can compare yourself to them on the basis of whether your differences operate on the basis of a function. According to the first way of comparison no two people will ever really be equal, and even if they are all you have to do is further refine your means of defining who a person(you maybe) is and they won't be. According to the second you are a person, not unlike any other person, and you have tendencies, but your tendencies will not always at every moment predict your behavior, and they won't for other people either, but both of you have human nature dictating the rise of your tendencies.
It's like this: at my local park, which is about a quarter-mile by a half-mile, there is a system of paths. A few years ago the people responsible for the park 'upgraded' it and added gravel to part of the existing path, mostly the part around the outside. They also laid down a lot of concrete sidewalk, especially where the movement of people was so common as to be interpreted formally, by wide sidewalks and lampposts etc. When they did this they hired a designer to fashion the paths. This designer imposed a new position for the path around the outside of the park too, one that meandered in places, but places of their choosing.
Well, after several years there is a well worn path around the outside of the park, a path of the people's choosing. My point is none of the paths, in their intrinsic nature, render any of the others invalid. What they are comes down to expressions of choice given the people's idea concerning their intended use of the park at a time. Some days they want to walk all the way around the outside because they aren't in a hurry, or they want the total distance for exercise, etc. When they do they go in a way that contradicts the architect's design. It doesn't mean that the architect screwed up when they laid down their planned paths. Those paths are actually quite good for some people's determined use over a wide variety of intentions expressed over time.
Recently, and at various times in the past, yellow tape has appeared across the independently worn path, between trees and such. The authorities have come round and attempted to block the people from making their choice. They want them on the architect's path. Yesterday I noticed that people had torn all of those down and just kept going where they will. Maybe the authorities ought to engage in an expensive political and legal battle to enforce their architected path? Maybe they should just take a look and build a serviceable path where the people like to go in numbers sufficient enough to indicate they have a need for one? Do you see how the two ways of looking at this are very much like how you can choose to frame the argument about human equality?
One can say this about life: people's lives, their characteristics and how they might form a bundle of tendencies, can be like a particular path. You could say that your path is the path, and that all other paths are invalid in light of the existence of your path. After all, you've interpreted the landscape and have pretty much figured out, based on the grade of things(DNA, or whatever) and the placement of trees(society, or whatever) where the path most logically should be. You could even carry this all the way to its logical conclusion and put 'keep off the grass' signs up all around the vast green middle universe that beckons folks to go and lay or play where they will. You could do that, or you could listen.
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Re: You're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authori
by Rod_Cloutier » Sun 15 Feb 2015, 13:03:54
On the other side of the fence the Anarchists are also getting busy:
https://vimeo.com/118945174
Suggesting that even the far left political party in Greece isn't radical enough, that we need to get rid of governments altogether. A rapper in the video sings about sacrifices with a video of gang action against police playing in the background. (This is also a really scary trend)
https://vimeo.com/118945174
Suggesting that even the far left political party in Greece isn't radical enough, that we need to get rid of governments altogether. A rapper in the video sings about sacrifices with a video of gang action against police playing in the background. (This is also a really scary trend)
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Re: You're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authori
by evilgenius » Sun 15 Feb 2015, 13:25:03
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Don35', 'I') would recommend reading "The Fourth Turning" Howe and Strauss. Theory that history is cyclical not in events but in it's attitudes, beliefs, etc. We must go through winter before we can experience spring. It has interesting predictions based on the past. When "X" happened in the past "Y" happened. Scary predictions. Highly recommended by me! 
Me too!
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Re: You're not the boss of Me! ... and the crisis of authori
by evilgenius » Sun 15 Feb 2015, 14:20:08
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Paulo1', 'I')bon
re:
"I want to leave you all with an image of an old one room country school house in the first half of the 20th century where teachers would teach latin, where students would learn the classics, where literature was dissected. Where a belief in the common good prevailed and authorities in their imperfection were respected. "
You forgot to mention...where the children sat quietly and listened. They took turns and raised their hands. The also knew if they got in trouble at school it would be dealt with at home. An A was an A and a C was a C and people actually failed. At recess they played hard and rough outside. Not one child used the phrase motherf#@!er. Not one little girl wore makeup or was dressed as a hooker. When parents visited the school they did not sport tatoos. The women did not wear wife-beater tee shirts with their boobs hanging out. The men wore their hats as they were designed.
My wife was an elementaary teacher for 25 years. When I picked her up after work I was horrified. I taught elementary school for 3 years. I remember one day seeing a couple of moms fighting...calling each other crack whores and sluts with boobs heaving as they tried to swing on each other. (I soon transferred back to teaching carpentry!!
)
It is pretty grim out there. My wife had a 7 year old whose Dad bought him "Call of Duty"? video game for Christmas. It is harder to get a drivers license than it is to get married, for sure. As for popping out kids, well who needs marriage anymore? Like I said...pretty grim out there.
re:
"I want to leave you all with an image of an old one room country school house in the first half of the 20th century where teachers would teach latin, where students would learn the classics, where literature was dissected. Where a belief in the common good prevailed and authorities in their imperfection were respected. "
You forgot to mention...where the children sat quietly and listened. They took turns and raised their hands. The also knew if they got in trouble at school it would be dealt with at home. An A was an A and a C was a C and people actually failed. At recess they played hard and rough outside. Not one child used the phrase motherf#@!er. Not one little girl wore makeup or was dressed as a hooker. When parents visited the school they did not sport tatoos. The women did not wear wife-beater tee shirts with their boobs hanging out. The men wore their hats as they were designed.
My wife was an elementaary teacher for 25 years. When I picked her up after work I was horrified. I taught elementary school for 3 years. I remember one day seeing a couple of moms fighting...calling each other crack whores and sluts with boobs heaving as they tried to swing on each other. (I soon transferred back to teaching carpentry!!
)It is pretty grim out there. My wife had a 7 year old whose Dad bought him "Call of Duty"? video game for Christmas. It is harder to get a drivers license than it is to get married, for sure. As for popping out kids, well who needs marriage anymore? Like I said...pretty grim out there.
What you've posted reminds me of the psychology and psycho-history of the "rat run". You know, those routes in every city of any size where motorists cut through otherwise peaceful neighborhoods at rush hour, and sometimes other times of the day. For the people who inhabit those neighborhoods it is a real nightmare. For those who drive those routes it is a quicker way to get home, or to the store, or office, whatever.
You can try to combat the use of the rat run by measures that include speed bumps, excessive stop signs, intensive policing, etc. Most of those measures often wind up making the place you live annoyingly different than the one you thought you were trying to preserve, though. Some neighborhoods try them. Many find a balance, with a side benefit that Uncle Pete doesn't like to visit very often anymore.
The point is, however, that rat runs are not caused by a neighborhood having a very attractive counter route. Rat runs are, by their nature, out of the way for most people, actually. They are caused by the general consensus route not having a perceivable answer for the driver who needs to get some place. A lot of the time this is because society wide the people have an attitude that is not in line with solving the problem(they don't want to invest money, or time, or whatever). Sometimes the problem does lie with government, in that it has lost touch with the fact that it is the people and the people are the government. Sometimes it is the result of wealthy interests buying off the people to agree to a thing that they should have known they would later regret, but, hey, look at the nice subdivision that exists now into which I can place my family.
Now, you can choose to be some crazy home owner, out there with a speed gun you bought off of the internet, tracking the speed of almost every car that comes by, demanding the city do something about the horror that is your neighborhood, or you could ask yourself what is really causing the problem and advocating for a solution to that. You might be the only voice doing so, but if that is what really needs to be said, have at it.
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/snark