[Pops]

As the Bowling Alone paper argues, a large part of the disconnect with society and authority is that we are largely disconnected from the social structures that once forced us conform.
Lots of folks still profess faith and 40% self report weekly church attendance but the reality is more like 17% according to this.

I don't think church necessarily makes us better people but it does connect us with society - our neighbors - in a way that Sports Center doesn't. Being a part of a group necessarily influences one to act in alignment with the group. Once upon a time we were much more bound to the community we lived in and our reputations were important. What Mrs. Kravitz saw through the gap in the curtains actually had real ramifications because in no time everyone from the gardener to the banker knew our business. Now we travel (I'll say it again) 36 miles a day to the garden shop, the bank, the office, the school, the soccer field - and probably see few people we know.

Our reputation we carry in that magnetic stripe in our wallet.

[GHung]

Yeah, Paulo, both of my parents were teachers and, even when they retired in the early 80s, they had become disillusioned with the educational system; maybe not the system itself, but of the changes being forced on it by society in general. My dad retired as the dean of educational administration and law at a major university. At least he tried, as frustrating as that became.

Parents not only don't understand the importance of maintaining authority; they resent it. PTA meetings became bitch sessions rather than problem-solving, cooperative ventures. Lack of performance by students became the teachers' failings rather than a failure of parenting. By the time my kids graduated (from what these days rates as an excellent public school) they didn't have homework. Time was allotted during school hours for 'study' because our school system realized it wasn't going to happen at all in most homes. Parents and kids decided they had better things to do. The end result is generations of kids who aren't taught how to think; they're told what to think. How can we even begin to hope they'll be able to grasp the complex problems we face? What we get is a society of reactionaries => Idiocracy, including many of those in authority.

[Nubs]

OK, many of us on this thread have revealed ourselves to be, at heart, a bunch of whining old fart gloomers and doomers who yearn for the mythical good old days of yore. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s worth keeping in mind that the problems surrounding respect for authority, or lack thereof, are as old as the hills that those young'ins seldom visit and the milky way that the city folk can’t even see (metaphorically speaking, of course; I ain't no young earth creationist).
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen a man stops believing in God he doesn’t then believe in nothing, he believes anything. (attributed, perhaps incorrectly, to G. K. Chesterton; http://www.chesterton.org/ceases-to-worship/)

[onlooker]

I have to agree, their is a fine balance between individual rights and self-determination and social cohesion and solidarity. It is not easy to attain that balance. I think it can be attained via education and by curiously not allowing any institution or governing entity to attain disproportionate power. Why? Because we should never allow anyone or group to tell anyone of us what to think or do. Does this mean we do not have a social contract and set of principles to live by, not at all. That is truly needed to have this social cohesion and solidarity. That is different then to have ephemeral entities laying down the law like it or not. This Contract think something like our Constitution would be ongoing and serve to unite us. We can learn in time how valuable this Contract is because it will be the reason and glue that allows society to endure and progress. So it will stand the test of time. Finally, I for one always side on the side of individual liberty and critical thinking. Yet this does not in any way exclude having and maintaining this society-wide Contract.

[dohboi]

Pops wrote: "Now we travel (I'll say it again) 36 miles a day to the garden shop, the bank, the office, the school, the soccer field - and probably see few people we know.

Our reputation we carry in that magnetic stripe in our wallet."

Very nicely put, as usual. The first bit helps bring the discussion back to energy issues, which is putatively the overarching theme of the whole forum. (Not sure how this discussion ended up on an Environmental subarea, though...doesn't matter.)

I had a brilliant but somewhat cracked chemistry prof in college who had a theory that increasing energy in a system doesn't just tend to break chemical bonds, but also a society with more energy imputs ends up having a harder time holding all sort of relationships together.

He had graphs showing correspondences between growing energy use and, for example, increasing divorce rates. Of course, correlation is not by itself proof of causation, and I thought the theory was interesting but basically taking a metaphor a bit too far.

But Pop's example helps show exactly how access to more energy (and the various societal structures and practices that tend to develop in the context of all that energy) do indeed make it harder for all sorts of relationships to occur.

Anyway, I find this line of discussion more interesting than just pissing and moaning about how people don't go to church or don't automatically believe some random "authority" anymore.

I can't remember where it was now, but someone charted the number of human interactions (beyond some bare minimum) that happen in traditional, small scale societies' market places and on the typical shopping trip of a 'modern' consumer. The difference was quite extreme. Societal cohesion in those traditional societies does not primarily depend on specific institutions; people don't have to go to a particular place at a particular time, like church or whatever, to connect. Nearly every hour of every day is a constant set of interactions and affirmed connections between people who have known each other all their lives, and whose families have known each other for generations...

Not to say that this always leads to paradise--such societies also often have generations-deep resentments that flair up in vendettas and other kinds of conflict. But I think the kind of alienation most feel in modern life was largely missing.
......

Nubs wrote: "Social structure is necessary; it’s the way out of the tragedy of the commons. "

That is a very excellent point, too. Much more could be said about it, but I've already gone on long enough.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'V')ery nicely put, as usual.

[dohboi]

They didn't know what they had!!

[Nubs]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')And here is a lengthy but very relevant article on the death of natural history

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/art ... ol_Twitter

[shallow sand]

My take, which is just personal observation.

Our society is primarily divided into two groups these days. Overgeneralization, but here goes:

A. Educated, but take on a lot of student debt. More staying single, but if get married, get married later, may not have kids, but if do, wait till 30+ and have 1 or 2, rarely 3. Pay their own way and have financial goals which require both to work, delay family formation and limit number of children. Want their children to be educated also, but realize putting more than two through college will be financially difficult. Also difficult to have large family with two income household. Group A is not growing.

B. Not educated, limited chance for economic stability. More also staying single, but are not refraining from having children. May have one or two, but may have many more. Demographically more important, having children at age 15-25 and more likely to be grandparents by 35-45. Children also not likely to be educated. Most work, but at low income jobs with little chance to increase income. Unable to pay their own way due to low income, so require government assistance such as earned income credit, medical card. Some see no hope, turn to drugs, try to qualify for disability, or both. Group B is growing, definitely faster than group A.

I agree the above is a big generalization. However 60%+ of kids in our local school qualify for free lunches, despite us having some good job opportunities. Having a felony record is not a disqualifier around here anymore, hard to find people to work.

[Don35]

I would recommend reading "The Fourth Turning" Howe and Strauss. Theory that history is cyclical not in events but in it's attitudes, beliefs, etc. We must go through winter before we can experience spring. It has interesting predictions based on the past. When "X" happened in the past "Y" happened. Scary predictions. Highly recommended by me!

[Pops]

Long series by Jim Quinn @ Burning Platform (h/t PO.com) on the 4th turning
Enough to make your Doom Bone ache and your Saturday outlook altogether different, I guarantee!

***Warning*** if you are mentally unstable and/or have a bunch of cash you could blow on gold and such; think before you click!

[Ibon]

Conclusion to all of this? Abundant energy breeds mediocrity. Technology has given this mediocrity wings to fly. Was this inevitable?

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'C')onclusion to all of this? Abundant energy breeds mediocrity. Technology has given this mediocrity wings to fly. Was this inevitable?

[onlooker]

I do not think it was inevitable. We could have been more engaged in valuing nature and in controlling our impulse to consume and our greed. We just never gave these matters the attention they deserve. In the way an adolescent does not think twice about acting impulsively and without forethought. We had to have ethos that was commensurate with these objectives we just never did as a collective species. Will we going forward well we already stated perhaps yes in light of the difficult path ahead of us. Also, I see nothing in our genetic makeup prohibiting us from having done so.

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'C')onclusion to all of this? Abundant energy breeds mediocrity. Technology has given this mediocrity wings to fly. Was this inevitable?

[Withnail]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'C')onclusion to all of this? Abundant energy breeds mediocrity. Technology has given this mediocrity wings to fly. Was this inevitable?

[onlooker]

That certainly is true. The institutions of authority for most of our history have led us so poorly. Leading us to war, having us worship the "divine" king, pharaoh etc.
Religions asking us to not question just blind obedience. Mapping and organizing a world deeply unequal and unjust. We have evolved from this hierarchy type of societies whereby we just were told to follow the leaders and hardly had any say in this. Well look where that has led us. So to the point of this thread I think we should commend and applaud that we are evolving to know that we should never again be ruled by just a few.

[Nubs]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'T')hat certainly is true. The institutions of authority for most of our history have led us so poorly. Leading us to war, having us worship the "divine" king, pharaoh etc.
Religions asking us to not question just blind obedience. Mapping and organizing a world deeply unequal and unjust. We have evolved from this hierarchy type of societies whereby we just were told to follow the leaders and hardly had any say in this. Well look where that has led us. So to the point of this thread I think we should commend and applaud that we are evolving to know that we should never again be ruled by just a few.

[dorlomin]

There is a very limited antivaxxer movement in the UK, France or Germany.

The over all gist of this thread seems to me to be a kind of collective back patting exercise for not being as dumb as everyone else.

[SeaGypsy]

Yeah, but you make art of finding the negative & bitching. Which is worse?