[americandream]

@phaster

Capitalism is you and I and all we contemplate and value....it envelopes us....it is the cultural base we are grounded in from day one. It is no tool but the consequence of the surrounding material conditions and our adaptation to them. It is economy, religion, morality, the family, legal principles...the whole gamut. It is our social relations. Today we name those capitalism, the Founding Fathers fled social relations that were feudal.

Social relations are imbued with their own logic, their own sets of tendencies and we are as much in control of them as we are of death. We can of course understand social relations and act to channel them, living with the consequences of course.

[Pops]

Government unions pose a particular problem because there isn't any "management" incentive (greed) to offset the greed of the union. IOW, it is easy for a bureaucrat to sign off on a big pension for employees because it isn't any skin off his nose.

Talking to my son-in-law yesterday: he made Army E-6 in 6 years and has been approved for E-7 as soon as a spot opens up. He's done really well, been deployed twice and I'm proud of him and his effort.

Things is, as he described it to me, he is now basically "tenured" and would have to mess up in a big way to lose his job or even rank. After E-7 he will need to show up (my words) a dozen more years and he's out with a lifetime pension at the same scale he's at right now. So basically, 8 years effort gets him a 50+ year ride, easily a million-two in retirement pay alone.

I think that's great for him (and my daughter and family) and again he's worked hard, but ...

He says civilians would be shocked at the waste, I told him we don't care as long as there isn't a draft. The other thing we talked quite a bit about is the extent to which the military has been privatized, that will probably be the biggest legacy of the Cheney/Rumsfeld administration. Did anyone notice that military budget wasn't downsized?

It was only outsourced?

[KaiserJeep]

Not downsized? The US had 12M+ troops in WW2, and when I was in uniform during Vietnam, I was one of 3.5M US troops. There are presently less than 1.5M active duty troops plus another 1 million reserves.

Clinton downsized the US military by about 1.1M in the 1990's, and added 850,000+ new federal employees and talked about a "new smaller government". If there was ever a "cause" of the 9/11 attack, that was it - the new weaker US presence in the Middle East.

The 167,000 ME contractors don't begin to backfill what we lost in actual troops. Most are in non-combatant support roles. The only place the combatant headcount stayed the same between troops and contractors was Afghanistan.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')wo recently released reports, one by the Congressional Research Service (CRS) and one by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), show that not only is the number of private contractors in Afghanistan increasing, but the Pentagon is also unable to tell what they are even doing there. Citing the reports, David Francis of the Fiscal Times points out that there are now 108,000 private contractors in Afghanistan (over 30,000 of whom are Americans), far more than the 65,700 U.S. troops still there,and the number was counted at 110,404 last month. That amounts to 1.6 contractors, roughly 18,000 of which are private security contractors, for every American soldier.

Although the U.S. presence in Afghanistan is ostensibly winding down towards an eventual handover to Afghan security forces, as Francis argues, "the increase in the contractors to troop ratio is yet another indication that although the vast majority of troops are leaving Afghanistan, a private army will remain in the country for years."

[Quinny]

The 'cause' of the 9/11 attack - the new weaker US presence in the Middle East - LMFAO.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
Talking to my son-in-law yesterday: he made Army E-6 in 6 years and has been approved for E-7 as soon as a spot opens up. He's done really well, been deployed twice and I'm proud of him and his effort.

Things is, as he described it to me, he is now basically "tenured" and would have to mess up in a big way to lose his job or even rank. After E-7 he will need to show up (my words) a dozen more years and he's out with a lifetime pension at the same scale he's at right now. So basically, 8 years effort gets him a 50+ year ride, easily a million-two in retirement pay alone.

I think that's great for him (and my daughter and family) and again he's worked hard, but ...

[Pops]

Pensioners in Detroit kinda think their bargain should be made good on as well. But they don't give out bronze stars to garbagemen so even though they made a bargain, they are about to get screwed.

State union members is Wisconsin no longer have the right to bargain collectively so they don't even get to make a bargain. The ongoing fight against workers is part and parcel of the fight against paying taxes, simple as that.


But, it is a strange thing, when I was military age, drafted soldiers were "baby-killers" now each volunteer is a hero and gets a "thanks for your service." Congress (especially Rs but Ds too) wraps itself in the flag and takes every opportunity to increase mil wages and benefits and block base closings and weapons system phase outs (for their district). I gotta hand it to the TEAs on that score, they did allow cuts to the mil (before they reinstated them, lol)

The OP cited Eisenhower warning of the military-industrial complex and that is more and more evident as the budgets expand, militarism leaks into civilian life via the war on terror, privatization, Total Information Awareness, etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ithout a reduction, it [the mil] will pay 100% of its budget on personnel and maintenance by 2024

[Henriksson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '
')So Pops, would you be willing to sign that contract? I did, and I have the Air Medals and three Bronze Stars to prove I held up my end of the contract. I expect the govt. to keep their end of the bargain.

[basil_hayden]

It's the "political-legal system" (or in other words the banksters) vs. the military-industrial complex", all competing for the same dollar. Whomever gets it immediately uses it against us anyhow.

And yes, I'm still trying to figure out how "volunteers" who get a paycheck are heroes whom I should thank for their service, then pay their pension infinitely. Sounds like a "job" to me; except no one thanks me for my service, or provides me with an infinite pension.

And don't jump down my throat - there are a few heroic individuals in the armed services who protect their colleagues (think Audie Murphy types). But to the bulk of them (think of JAG lawyer types), it's an easy paycheck in a world where finding suitable work isn't as easy as it used to be.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('basil_hayden', 'I')t's the "political-legal system" (or in other words the banksters) vs. the military-industrial complex", all competing for the same dollar. Whomever gets it immediately uses it against us anyhow.

And yes, I'm still trying to figure out how "volunteers" who get a paycheck are heroes whom I should thank for their service, then pay their pension infinitely. Sounds like a "job" to me; except no one thanks me for my service, or provides me with an infinite pension.

And don't jump down my throat - there are a few heroic individuals in the armed services who protect their colleagues (think Audie Murphy types). But to the bulk of them (think of JAG lawyer types), it's an easy paycheck in a world where finding suitable work isn't as easy as it used to be.

[KaiserJeep]

I felt a mixture of dismay, anger, incredulity, and frustration as I read this thread. Firstly I am the son of a career US military officer. My family has a tradition of Service which is now stretching into the fourth generation.

Service is not a job, or a career, or a place to put misfits who don't fit into civilian life. If you want to understand what it IS, start your research here:

"Citizen Soldier: The Reserves and the National Guard in the 21st Century" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5gUfJpAvPU

"The Changing Role of the Citizen-Soldier" - http://www.loc.gov/wiseguide/jul08/citizen-soldier.html

"The Citizen Soldier And National Service" (is a bit dated, but still a good description of the things that changed in 1973 when conscription ended) - http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1979/nov-dec/janowitz.html

Lastly, the best description ever written about the duties and motivations of the citizen-soldier:

"Starship Troopers" by Robert A. Heinlein. http://www.amazon.com/Starship-Troopers-Robert-A-Heinlein/dp/0441783589

(NOT any movie version. There has never been a movie version of Starship Troopers made by anybody who understood the book. There is a reason that all US military academies have this book as required reading material. The book has never been out of print since it was written in 1959, and I do not expect it will be during the century to come.

"A soldier accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The civilian does not."

"If you wanted to teach a baby a lesson, would you cut its head off? Of course not. You'd paddle it. There can be circumstances when it's just as foolish to hit an enemy city with an H-bomb as it would be to spank a baby with an axe. War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him...but to make him do what you want to do. Not killing...but controlled and purposeful violence. But it's not your business or mine to decide the purpose of the control. It's never a soldier's business to decide when or where or how—or why—he fights; that belongs to the statesmen and the generals. The statesmen decide why and how much; the generals take it from there and tell us where and when and how. We supply the violence; other people—'older and wiser heads,' as they say—supply the control. Which is as it should be."

"I told you that 'juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms. 'Delinquent' means 'failing in duty.' But duty is an adult virtue—indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be a 'juvenile delinquent.' But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents—people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail."

"Man is what he is, a wild animal with the will to survive, and (so far) the ability, against all competition. Unless one accepts that, anything one says about morals, war, politics—you name it—is nonsense. Correct morals arise from knowing what man is—not what do-gooders and well-meaning old Aunt Nellies would like him to be. The universe will let us know—later—whether or not Man has any "right" to expand through it. In the meantime the M.I. will be in there, on the bounce and swinging, on the side of our own race."

"The basis of all morality is duty."

- Starship Troopers, 1959, by Robert A. Heinlein. (M.I. = Mobile Infantry, aka the Starship Troopers.)

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '&')quot;A soldier accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The civilian does not."

[americandream]

Morality and duty...two elements of social relations objectivity. Then the choice becomes..."what is in it for you" for those perceptive enough to pierce the veil over all our lives.

[KaiserJeep]

You two do not understand Service. Make the attempt. Read the book.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'Y')ou two do not understand Service. Make the attempt. Read the book.

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'Y')ou two do not understand Service. Make the attempt. Read the book.

[KaiserJeep]

I have indeed read Butler. Dwight D. Eisenhower inspired him, he has nothing original.

Now, do you understand that you changed the subject, or attempted to? Because War is not at all what we were talking about, we were discussing the duties of a Citizen-Soldier.

The depth of the chasm between us is so vast, I have no idea where to begin. The feeling I am getting is one any parent would understand: Your child is exhausted, but not yet ready to release the day. So you talk them down, until you are whispering to yourself and they are asleep.

Also apt: You stand upon a high cliff, and urinate over the side. Your objective is to dilute the ocean, and you soon realize that you have not yet drunk near enough beer. I think I'll go have a beer now.

[Strummer]

I don't care about pseudo-philosophical ramblings. What I do care about are your Citizen-Soldiers killing innocent helpless people on the other side of the world. That's the reality you are forcing upon millions and millions of them in the name of "Duty".

[KaiserJeep]

You don't understand the role of a soldier. His duty is to execute the mission he is given, without fail. The responsibility to determine and define what he does is that of the elected officials and politicians.

Blaming a soldier for carrying out orders is akin to blaming a pencil for misspelled words. YOU after all are responsible for the actions of the politicians that you elect. Your responsibility as a citizen is to elect someone who reflects your personal interests and viewpoint.

Viper to Top Gun class: "We do not make policy here. That is for elected officials and politicians. We are the instruments of that policy." - Top Gun (1986)

You cannot serve and not understand the concept of Service. Really, that you would even make such a statement displays a fundamental lack of understanding of the military, our system of government, and your own responsibilities as a voter.

[Strummer]

Human civilization is not an ant colony. In the end, the individual us the one responsible for his actions, and more importantly for the *end result* of those actions. No amount if alibistic bullshitting can change that.