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Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 04 Feb 2014, 03:23:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('copious.abundance', '[')url=http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1977/1101770912_400.jpg]21st Century Economy: The Kids Are Alright[/url]$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he pessimism around the Millennial generation is, at best, premature. We already know that income scales with education, and the Millennial Generation will be the most educated in history. The oldest of the Millennials, 30–34s, have a much higher post-secondary attainment rate than than their parents: 45% to the 40% of 50–54s. Beyond education, income also scales with age. With the modal Millennial being 21 today, over the next decade millennials will likely make their largest age-based income gains (more than $22,000). With this higher income, 25–34′s spend a great deal more, and more frequently form households.

All of these new households need a home
You linked to the Time cover image.
In the past income scaled with education and age. It hasn't been lately. But, have faith, this immutable law will come back into force.
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Tue 04 Feb 2014, 19:38:19

Oops, you're right I goofed! Had been doing something else and I didn't copy the link when I posted this. Here's the corrected one.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('copious.abundance', 'H')ere's one of my "21st Century Economy" posts - with a really interesting twist. And it also has a lot to do with the "bombshell report" article I posted above.

Image

21st Century Economy: The Kids Are Alright
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')...]

The pessimism around the Millennial generation is, at best, premature. We already know that income scales with education, and the Millennial Generation will be the most educated in history. The oldest of the Millennials, 30–34s, have a much higher post-secondary attainment rate than than their parents: 45% to the 40% of 50–54s. Beyond education, income also scales with age. With the modal Millennial being 21 today, over the next decade millennials will likely make their largest age-based income gains (more than $22,000). With this higher income, 25–34′s spend a great deal more, and more frequently form households.

All of these new households need a home

The Census Bureau forecasts an additional 30 million Americans in 10 years. This is in addition to the 22 million 20–24s who largely haven’t formed households, who will become 30–34s who have. Even using the densest household age bracket, 35–44s at 3.3, that is 16.25 million new households, or 1.625 million per year (Figure 4). This is largely consistent with other estimates, such as from the Federal Reserve’s Andrew Paciorek.

[...]

Then, the most interesting part in the last two paragraphs. I'm sure Loki will like the part about the robots.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ur two top foreign Treasury debt holders, Japan and China, will be be experiencing an even more rapid and elongated rise in dependency ratio. The years of being able to export the surplus of working-aged labour are closing in those countries, while the United States has some of the most favourable working-aged demographics in the industrialized world. In this way, the Baby Boomers left their children an annuity of a sort — they paid foreigners money for decades that their children will exchange for labour.

There will necessarily be more robots, or real capital. There will be more real capital, and the output of the country will become increasingly real capital intensive — that is, the usage of real capital as a factor of production will rise above the others. In the past, as the dependency ratio has remained relatively flat, this has led to surplus value accruing to the owners of real capital. In a future with a soaring dependency ratio, productivity through real capital formation will be to contain labour costs rather than capture surplus value. That is, to wit, the increasing dependency ratio will pressure the business sector to invest in productivity because labour will get relatively scarce as retirements stagnate the labour force.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Scrub Puller » Tue 04 Feb 2014, 21:55:10

Yair . . . With interest rates as they have been for some time in the US even I can understand that the manufacturing sector will invest in Automation and Robotics rather than providing jobs.

I wonder how would the sector fare if they had to pay 14/18% for their money as we did in the late 'Seventies when establishing a marine engineering/manufacturing business.

It is possible to survive under such a burden. You have to be small and nimble though . . . characteristics not typical of most US manufacturing operations.

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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Tue 04 Feb 2014, 22:17:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Scrub Puller', 'Y')air . . .

Y'know I'm beginning to think Scrub Puller's "yair" is some sort of religious ritual, since he starts every post with that.

And, come to think of it, maybe that's not such a bad idea. I think maybe I should start every post with, "Blessed be the gods of abundance and prosperity ..." :lol:
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Loki » Tue 04 Feb 2014, 22:25:32

Ellyn Terry of the Atlanta Fed did an interesting study last month of the labor force participation rate:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')What Accounts for the Decrease in the Labor Force Participation Rate?

Despite the addition of only 74,000 jobs to the economy in December, the unemployment rate dropped significantly—from 7 percent to 6.7 percent. The decline came mostly from a decrease in the labor force.

Since the recession began, the labor force participation rate (LFPR) has dropped from 66 percent to 63 percent. Many people have left the labor force because they are discouraged from applying (U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data indicate that a little under 1 million people fall into this category). But the primary drivers appear to be an increase in the number of people who are either retired, disabled/ill, or in school.
Certainly, the aging of the population accounts for much of the increase in the retired and disabled/ill categories. Still, there has been a lot of movement over the past few years in the reasons people cite for not participating in the labor force within age groups. Knowing the reasons why people have left (or delayed entering) the labor force can help us understand how much of the decline will likely halt once the economy picks back up and how much is permanent....

The chart below shows the distribution of reasons in the fourth quarter of 2013. (Of the people not in the labor force, 1.6 percent indicate they want a job and give a reason for not being in the labor force. They are categorized here as "want a job" only.) Young people are not in the labor force mostly because they are in school. Individuals 25 to 50 years old who are not in the labor force are mostly taking care of their family or house. After age 50, disability or illness becomes the primary reason people do not want to work—until around age 60, when retirement begins to dominate.

Image

In total, the number of people not in the labor force rose by 12.6 million (16 percent) from the fourth quarter of 2007 to the fourth quarter of 2013. About 5.5 million more people (a 16 percent increase) are retired, 2.9 million (a 23 percent increase) are disabled or ill, and 2.5 million (a 19 percent increase) are in school. An additional 161,000 are taking care of their family or house, and an additional 99,000 are not in the labor force for other reasons. The fraction who say they want a job has risen the most (32 percent) but has contributed only 11 percent to the total change. The chart below shows the overall contributions by reason to the changes in labor force participation for all age groups since the onset of the recession.

Image

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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Scrub Puller » Tue 04 Feb 2014, 23:06:43

Yair . . . copious.abundance. I have started every post that way since my first days on the internet. (he gives a big grin)

Its a sort of laid back Queensland thing . . . if you drawl out "Yaaair" before you make a statement it gives a few moments to put your thoughts in order. I do it all the time in normal speech . . . saw no reason to discontinue when posting on the net.

On a practical level it also helps (along with the bolding or coloured text when responding to other posters) to identify my posts.

Cheers.
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:38:40

Well, you know things are going pretty good when people are disappointed at ADP's jobs added which was "only" 175K, and the consensus was 180K.

Image

US private companies created 175,000 jobs in January vs. 180,000 estimate
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Private companies created 175,000 new positions in January, a bit lower than expected but in keeping with the pace of job creation over the past two years, according to the latest report from ADP and Moody's Analytics.

Economists expected the ADP to report that private companies created 180,000 jobs in January, down from the downwardly revised 217,000 positions in December.

"Nothing changed in December or January fundamentally," Moody's economist Mark Zanki told CNBC. "The economy is still improving."

As has been the case throughout the labor recovery, services created by far the bulk of the growth, with 160,000 new positions added. Professional services declined sharply, adding just 49,000 jobs after averaging 65,000 over the past two months.

Manufacturing jobs, meanwhile, fell by 12,000 though construction added 25,000.

Small businesses also led the way, with 75,000 jobs, though that was the lowest figure since August. Large firms, with more than 500 employees, added just 34,000 positions.

[...]
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Feb 2014, 11:19:13

Image

Service Industries in U.S. Grew More Than Forecast in January
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ervice industries in the U.S. expanded more than forecast in January as the biggest part of the economy shrugged off the effects of snow and freezing temperatures.

The Institute for Supply Management’s non-manufacturing index increased to 54 from 53 in December, the Tempe, Arizona-based group said today. Readings greater than 50 signal expansion.

Consumer demand for services continues to strengthen as employment grows and housing prices rise. While an unusually harsh winter has taken a toll on some areas, including car sales and manufacturing, the recovery is on firmer footing going into 2014 as households reduce debt burdens and wealth improves.

“We have household spending and business spending picking up a bit,” Paul Ashworth, chief U.S. economist at Capital Economics Ltd. in Toronto, said before the report. “All the fundamentals still look good.”

[...]
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 05 Feb 2014, 21:26:17

There are some interesting reader comments on this article:
http://peakoil.com/consumption/the-us-e ... -you-think
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Feb 2014, 22:17:54

I sure didn't see anything interesting there. Some of these doomer comments have become almost unbelievably predictable. Usually it goes something like this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GardenVarietyDoomer', 'W')e're being screwed over by TPTB. The growth they're saying we have us is a bunch of lies. In reality, the unemployment rate is 66.6% and the economy is shrinking by 6.66% every quarter. If you don't believe me, subscribe to Shadowstats. And read Zerohedge. Also, oil production is about to fall off a cliff any moment now, so even if we were getting some growth, it wouldn't matter because it won't last long. The Fed - a private banking cartel created by the illuminati banksters - is screwing us raw, especially since they're suppressing the price of gold.

Then the trick is to repeat the words "fraud" or "fraudulent," "ponzi," "deceptive," "collapse" and "elite" as often as possible; speak with great scorn of "BAU," repeat the biggest debt figures one can find (without providing any context, of course) and repeat it as often as possible ... and so on. Then, predict an imminent collapse. When aforementioned collapse fails to materialize within any reasonably soon time period, completely forget you predicted it, and simply repeat the prediction again. And keep kicking that prediction can down the road as long as possible.

I am serious when I say some of these people clearly have serious psychological issues. They seem to hate almost everything (modern civilization in particular, though a lot of them simply have political/ideological axes to grind) and they trust no one, or at least very few people. There are devious, scheming people in power around every corner; nothing - and I mean nothing - is as it appears to be, to the extent that widespread signs of normality and prosperity are, in fact, symptoms of some hidden sickness. And so on. I really think some of these people have this, to one extent or another.

Granted, not all doomers are like that, but a lot of them are.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Scrub Puller » Wed 05 Feb 2014, 23:00:45

Yair . . . copious.abundance

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am serious when I say some of these people clearly have serious psychological issues.


And folks who spend hours trolling the net for glimpses of joy and formatting it into colourful, optimistic, "the good times are just around the corner" posts haven't got those psychological issues?

Cheers.
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 05 Feb 2014, 23:58:47

^
No, that's just done for entertainment. :lol:
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 06 Feb 2014, 00:33:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Scrub Puller', 'Y')air . . . copious.abundance

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am serious when I say some of these people clearly have serious psychological issues.


And folks who spend hours trolling the net for glimpses of joy and formatting it into colourful, optimistic, "the good times are just around the corner" posts haven't got those psychological issues?

Cheers.
And illustrating them with this wasteland:
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 06 Feb 2014, 02:02:59

I was wondering if someone would ever say something about that photo.

I use it for the ISM Services index. I've got another similar one of Houston I use sometimes (this one is in Denver).

Office buildings housing tech firms, and/or financial companies, and/or consulting firms, and who knows what else ... trucks on the road (transportation) ... a mall in the bottom-right corner (retail) ... copious amounts of landscaping to keep landscaping companies busy. And, maybe nobody's noticed, but a light rail line just in front of the freeway, symbolizing government (in addition to transportation).

A comprehensive photo of the US service sector!
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Strummer » Thu 06 Feb 2014, 06:37:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('copious.abundance', 'A') comprehensive photo of the US service sector!


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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Scrub Puller » Thu 06 Feb 2014, 06:45:21

Yair . . . copious.abundance I hear a lot about this "service sector" thingy over here too . . . what does it actually do?
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:40:25

Jobless claims show labor-market improvement
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]The number of people who applied to receive unemployment benefits in the last week of January fell by 20,000, reversing the increase from the week before and signaling that the U.S. labor market continues to gradually improve.

Initial jobless claims fell to a seasonally adjusted 331,000 in the seven-days ended Feb. 1 from a revised 351,000 in the prior week, the Labor Department said Thursday. Claims from two weeks ago were 3,000 higher than previously reported.

Economists polled by MarketWatch had expected claims to total 337,000.

The average of new claims over the past month, usually a more reliable gauge than the weekly number, edged down by 250 to 334,000. That put claims close to their level before the Thanksgiving holiday in late November, suggesting little change in the pace of hiring and firing over the past two months.

Weekly claims, typically a good proxy for layoffs, often jump up and down during the holiday season and the first month of the new year. They usually settle down by early February.

[...]
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Loki » Fri 07 Feb 2014, 14:56:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('copious.abundance', 'W')ell, you know things are going pretty good when people are disappointed at ADP's jobs added which was "only" 175K, and the consensus was 180K.

Oily, you forgot to subtract government job losses. Net jobs is what matters, you know that.

I thought you might have learned your lesson after posting that patently dishonest non-inflation-adjusted median income chart, but I guess not.

Oh, and Dept of Labor figures don't square with ADP's, much lower.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')url=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/08/business/us-economy-adds-113000-jobs-unemployment-rate-at-6-6.html?action=click&contentCollection=Business%20Day&region=Footer&module=TopNews&pgtype=Blogs]Weakness Continues as 113,000 Jobs Are Added in January[/url]

The American economy added 113,000 jobs in January, a disappointing showing that is likely to spur fears that the labor market is poised for yet another slowdown.

Before the report from the Labor Department on Friday morning, economists had been looking for the economy to gain 180,000 positions last month. But after an extraordinarily weak showing for hiring in December, some experts are concerned that weakness is carrying into 2014 and signaling a broader loss of momentum in the economy.

The unemployment rate in January was 6.6 percent, compared with 6.7 percent in December....

Private employers added 142,000 positions to their payrolls in January, while government at all levels shed 29,000. Among individual sectors, manufacturing had a gain of 21,000 jobs, while employment in construction jumped by 48,000.

The employment-population ratio, which has been falling as more workers drop out of the job market, edged up 0.2 percentage points to 58.8 percent. In recent years, the exit of people from the work force has reduced the unemployment rate, but it is a sign that people are giving up hope of finding a job amid slack conditions, hardly the way policy makers would like to see joblessness come down.
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby copious.abundance » Fri 07 Feb 2014, 16:13:19

It was (another) weird jobs report. Household survey was great, establishment survey was a big, fat "meh."

Job market bad, or OK? Depends on which survey you use.

*shrugs*

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') thought you might have learned your lesson after posting that patently dishonest non-inflation-adjusted median income chart, but I guess not.

Breaking news: The ADP report is always private-sector only, and I've never indicated anything else. You must be pretty desperate to accuse me of something if you're accusing me of inferring something I never even came close to inferring.

ADP and BLS frequently diverge, nothing new about that either. But BTW:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rivate employers added 142,000 positions to their payrolls in January

That's pretty close to ADP's 175K jobs, so in reality they weren't that far apart.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Here Comes The Meltdown Pt. 9.2-Double Dip-

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 07 Feb 2014, 16:21:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('copious.abundance', '[')b]Service Industries in U.S. Grew More Than Forecast in January


Apparently the US just can't get enough waiters, burger flippers, hotel doormen, and valet car parking attendants.

Image
Waiter......WAITER!....I thought you said this burger had grey poupon on it?
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