by cephalotus » Sat 17 Nov 2012, 03:32:27
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The part that I don't get (this may be US, libertarian bias talking) is the comment in red above. So you mean in Germany, if you have kids (how many?), you can say at home and the state PAYS YOU about $20,000 a year to raise them?
No. You get "Elterngeld" during around 12+2 months either the man or the woman. You can stay at home during that time and will get roughly 2/3rds of your last income (after taxes).
The maximum is 1800€/month (=21.600€/year), the minimum is 300€/month (=3600€/year)
You have to pay lots of taxes over here, but you can also get the benefits, of course.
I did NOT promote to live on social security, just to use what is available. And during the first years working fulltime as a single you are a huge netto contributor to the system (which is ok, who else should pay?) and when you have children and don't want to work full time you will benefit from the system.
You pay very little for health care in such a case but your hole family will be covered.
That's how living a decent life without the full time job threadmill will work in a "socialist" country like Germany and of course it is just an example. I used quite average figures, nothing special and I also only suggested starting at age 28, which will give you plenty of time to discover the world (which for me is a very important factor for a nice life and seeing how others life is also very helpful to get an idea what you really need to be happy and what is just consumerism crap feed to your brain by millions of TV advertisements).
In the US you need a different strategy. You pay much less taxes and probably have a significantly higher income. On the other side you probably will start with some dept after your university time and you have to make other strategies to cover health care for a family.
But maybe it is understandable why I do not have a problem with our high tax rates, even if it is currently me who is paying for the system. I'm still working a full time (=40h/week, overtime= free time later) job, I didn't do as well in my early days than I suggested, I know it better now!
But I still to plan it as I said above, I just will modify the strategy a little bit.
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')Considering we live in a world where overpopulation is almost certainly one of, if not THE biggest problem we have -- this is just BIZARRE to me.
German women get 1,4 children in average, our population is shrinking.
We also believe that people with very young children should not need to work still they drop but have at least one year to take care about their child. You CAN work, if you want.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Am I understanding this right? Can you outline a little about what the criteria are and how long this lasts? (i.e. X euros per child and Y years, or something completely different? If one chooses to work, do they lose part or all of this incentive NOT to work?) .
It lasts for 12 months + 2 months for your partner. Women OR men can use it. After that you have to work again (or get another children).
You also have (around) 12 months of unemployment benefits (ALG I), which also is 2/3rds of your last income after taxes if you have children (60% if you do not). After this you get "ALG II" which only takes care for the basic monetary needs. It's around monthly 345€/adult (380€ for a single) and around 220-290€/child depending on the age. You also get an "appropriate" apartment and the heating costs and free health care. This is forever, because it's the defined minimum that is said to be needed to survive in our modern society. With your money you can do what you want. You can spend it on food or a flatcreen TV.
If you are on unemployment benefits (ALG I, but especially ALG II) you have to search for a new job and if they offer you a job which is appropriate for your qualification you have to go there for a job interview. They will also offer you "training courses" which you must participate. If you don't, they will cut your rates.
So I prefer not to be (long term) unemployed and dependent on the goodwill of the state and some accounting clerk, but other services like "Elterngeld" or "ALG I" are available for some time and why not use them, if it fits your strategy? You also pay for them.
Germany has 1-3 millions of long term unemployed workers mostly since reunification. Those people often have little qualification, some are addicted to alcohol and many simply lost the ability for a 8h/day job. Sad, but true.
We don't have enough low qualifying jobs for them which would enable them to live on their wages. We do not have people that pack your shopping bag in the supermarket. We do not want people to do this for us and we do not want to pay someone for this, cultural differences, I assume.
I rather pay them sitting at home in front of the TV than forcing them to do nonsense work.
The system also has disadvantages. We now have some families which live on benefits in their third generation, they never worked and never intend to do so, maybe on the black market.
If you know how, you can live with very little money in Germany. For example we have "die Tafel", where supermarkets bring their old or unsold food. In theory everyone can go there and buy a trolley of food for 1 Euro. You have limited options of course, but the quality is perfectly fine. Akaik you can go there every day, if you want.
You can buy 2nd hand clothes for very cheap or that Chinese made stuff for very small money. I do not suggest this, but is is doable.
If you live in the city you can do very well without having your own car. Everything is easily within biking distance (you even have the time to walk a few km a day), public transport is available in my city 24hs/day and if you really need a car just use one from a car sharing company, the next station is within 3 minutes walking distance from me. If you do not have a driving licence just use a taxi (=expensive), if you only rarely need a car.
It is easy to live here without participating in a treadmill, but in reality most people still do.
When people have their first well paying job after university they immediately stop to live the frugal student live and rent that new large apartment, buy fancy new furniture, buy a new car...
It is VERY difficult to cut back if you once are adopted to a certain living standard. Suddenly you need the car, suddenly you can not live in 50m² any more, but you now need 100m², because all your new furnitures and stuff have to fit in there.
People also tend to "invest" in very expensive homes which they need 20-40 years of credit and interest rates to pay. They buy that expensive and large house / apartment, because it is your "lifetime investment" and you can't go cheap here.
I say that this is nonsense. By the time you finally have paid of your home your children will be adults and when the thing finally belongs to you (after being a slave to the bank and your job for decades) it is to large for just two old adults.
People are hoping for early retirement to finally have some free time when they are old.
I prefer to have free time when I am young. I want to spend my free time when I have little children growing up, not with sitting lonely in front of the TV at age 70. On the other hand I will not mind to work a bit when I am old, as long as I am able work. (as an engineer sitting in front of a PC and a phone is all that I need to be able to do in the worst case).
Don't accumulate your free time at the end of your life when you probably will be alone and sick and when you would beg for something to do, but try to get -some- more free time when you really need it. For me this is now. You only have one life.
Do not enslave yourself to a certain "living standard" or a certain system. What your neighbour does is not what you need to do, too. Most of the people have been brainwashed by millions of TV advertisements showing you that a nice life is only possible when you spend all your money and work for it till you drop.This is bullshit.
Travel the world. See which people are happy with their life and which are not. Happiness never is related to the size of the car or the size of the kitchen. Never!
The bad thing is, that you have to realize this at the age of 30, better at the age of 25. If your are already a member of the system at age 35 and already in dept for your fancy home, having two little children and three cars sitting at home it would be next to impossible to go back.
(maybe this is why some people here seem to wish for TEOTWAWKI ?)
If someone has a 40h job and would not be able to live on the wage of a the same job cut to 35h I do feel very sorry for them. Imho you are a slave.
best regards
