[ian807]

Still haven't got a response on what "deserves" means here. It's the crux of the debate, and so far, nobody's touched it.

[SeaGypsy]

Probably because most of us assume to have passed grade 1 in primary school without too much trouble.

It's as simple as this: a social group which can afford to act compassionately towards it's members, but chooses not to, ceases to be a social group. If you give a sh#t about your country, your fellow citizens, they deserve health care. Claiming to not be able to afford it is just a self justifying lie.

"Sorry kids, but Mommy is going to die soon, from cervical cancer. She will miss you and knows you will struggle without her, but for the good of the family Daddy has to put all our money into his armory to defend against Zombie attacks. Mommy loves Daddy and is happy to lay down her life for Daddies' bullet supply be sure and love your Daddy like Mommy shows you."

[threadbare]

The universal option was the only way this pig was going to fly. When they eliminated that, they created a clumsy, stupid 800 lb gorilla. Every successful, civilized country on the planet, has some form of universal coverage. The U.S. is looking more and more like a third world nation run by goons.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')t's as simple as this: a social group which can afford to act compassionately towards it's members, but chooses not to, ceases to be a social group. If you give a sh#t about your country, your fellow citizens, they deserve health care. Claiming to not be able to afford it is just a self justifying lie.

[SeaGypsy]

A suggestion for US Republicans:

Beat the Dems at their own game, with a total revolution in the social security system and medical system, simultaneously.

The med side, use Australia as the model, this at least allows for the survival of the private sector, rather than an absolute single payer no choice system. There is a lot of reading to do on how our system works, a lot more adapting to do to go there in the USA, but it is seriously doable.

The SS side, without writing an essay on the matter, can be the first cashless aspect of the economy. Make every dollar accountable. It is no longer at all necessary to chip or even fingerprint people to achieve this, eye scans will do just fine and take seconds, cost almost zilch. No junk food, no smokes or grog, no gas, no gambling. Essential and economic basics only, zero 'luxury/ discretionary spend' Mandate an immediate implementation of bus routes to cover the lag whilst sorting out rail.

You want to smoke, drink, drive, gamble, do drugs, eat junk, you gotta get a job. You won't starve or go homeless or be allowed to die from an infected broken limb, but if you won't work, you got no dime for nothing besides staying alive.

[rangerone314]

SeaGypsy: +1

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')It's as simple as this: a social group which can afford to act compassionately towards it's members, but chooses not to, ceases to be a social group. If you give a sh#t about your country, your fellow citizens, they deserve health care. Claiming to not be able to afford it is just a self justifying lie.
"

[SeaGypsy]

Last time I checked it was called 'The Union of States, the United States of America'. What a dumb question.

Screw the left/ right dichotomy. It's the war machine either way, with both sides sucking up to their perceived constituents. Neither has shown it has what it takes to cut waste. My suggestion is about that waste and about priorities and about resetting the vote base. It is also more likely to be taken up (if ever) by Republicans, because it would be vastly more efficient than what goes on now.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '1')). How do you KNOW the "social group" can afford it? I asked earlier what programs dems. are willing to give up for universal "free" healthcare. I VERY RARELY see meaningful responses from the left about willingness to cut ANY social programs, even for one as crucial as healthcare.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ian807', 'S')till haven't got a response on what "deserves" means here. It's the crux of the debate, and so far, nobody's touched it.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'I') VERY RARELY see meaningful responses from the left[/b] about willingness to cut ANY social programs, even for one as crucial as healthcare.

[SeaGypsy]

If you take a look at injured Vet stats, spending on their support, pensions, rehabilitation, the military certainly is responsible for a huge chunk of social spending. Then look at background statistics for military sign ups/ again effectively a work creation program for impoverished American regions. Then look at the lack of a real reason for military interventionism around the globe and futile wasting of resources of all kinds in such. Clearly, there is plenty of room for a re-write.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'O')K Six. Congrats. You get a half point for at least providing AN answer, the standard left answer -- though the military isn't a social program per se.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')nother topic, but they actually spend a lot. The US and its allies are accounting for 3/4 of worldwide military spending -- who are we planning to fight? Looking at those spending levels, there just are no enemies out there to justify these huge military expenditures. A military is the kind of thing where it's relative, you don't need to spend so much more than your adversaries are, the point is to keep relative advantage not bankrupt with unnecessary planet-striding armies (that we don't even get any tribute for, no taxes to the treasury anyhow).

[Timo]

One thing that i've not seen discussed, here (it may not actually be relevant), is the mere fact that systems are established according to the need their intended to address at that time. The word "system" can be applied to pretty much anything, from medical care, to social security, to military/mercenary protections, et. al...... I'd be really interested to see the demographics of the US at the time that social security was established, and how much, if any, those demographics have changed since its inception. I have no doubt that social security is about to face a real money crunch PDQ because the Boomers are just now beginning to enter and absorb an increasing amount of the retired demographic. There are fewer of us Xers and Gen Yers to pay into the "system" to keep it functioning at the same level as when all the Boomers were paying into it. There's a very dynamic element to everything in government, and any one "system" will never be the silver bullet, end-all-be-all policy to satisfy all of civilization's needs. Times change, and the policies we employ to address our needs should change relative to our abilities to make them function as well as we can. This does not mean throwing the baby out with the bath water, as the right-wing ideology/idiotocracy wants to do. Personally, i reject the argument that caring for our neighbor's well being is an ideological position, but then again, i'm not a Republican. United We Stand apparently only applies to our collective mid-set when we 're trying to start a war. The whole health-care argument is really exposing what we, as Americans, stand for. (Sorry to all the non-Amerikuns out there) "Land of the Free" seems to be suggesting the notion that we become free from facts, logic, reason, and even sympathies to those less fortunate, all under the ruse that we're only protecting our bank accounts and religious freedoms from big brother. This is the type of mentality that will keep our civilization second-rate, at best. The American Dream is systematically being reduced only to those with the pre-existing means to pursue it. Otherwise, the rest of us are considered leeches and suckers for wanting to modify the "system" just enough to widen the playing field for everyone.

The US is a democracy, isn't it?

[pup55]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')till haven't got a response on what "deserves" means here.

[SeaGypsy]

Idiotocracy is exactly right, kleptocratic assholedom. Sad that Pup and Outcast are both likely correct, even if arguing opposite angles. The only justification for the garbage system you have (or the one Obummer has put forth) is these vested interests/ campaign donators. That and the utter lack of political savvy on behalf of ordinary Americans, who think voting, then letting whatever thug wins government run the country is Democracy. Democracy is what the Australian Democrat Party says it is: "Keeping the Bastards Honest". The Bastards always win Government, because we are too pliable as voters to get rid of them. There is no way any of them are going to be honest unless forced to be. This can only happen by credible institutions and individuals continuously hounding on them. Impossible under a duopoly with no umpire, no un-biased MSM and no common understanding of how to attack evil politicians.

[Hristina]

In my opinion that people who are not insured deserve medical care because someone can not afford to pay for insurance but it should not be shortened Medici help. Nobody should be banned because it means you will be able to treat only those people who can afford pay for insurance and what will be with those who can not afford? Will die because they don't have money and don't have paid for insurance, it wouldn't be a fair

[Timo]

Alas, i've succumbed to the idiocy of me-first thinking, and have concluded that those who do not believe in the provision of health care as a basic human right simply have a pre-existing condition, and therefore are not covered, or at least do not deserve to be covered, by this country's national insurance plan, the US Constitution. I've come to realize that constitutional rights are simple commodities to be bought by those with the most money, and hoarded from those with the greatest need and unable to buy it themselves. The 1% are effectively establishing themselves as this nation's untouchable caste, only they have control of everything, Constitution be damned.

[Jeepers07]

I think everybody deserve medical care whether you have medical insurance or not. The problem is that if all dont have insurance, the government will be bankrupt for paying all the medical bills. Just got curious to check http://www.quotes-center.com/cheap-health-insurance-for-young-adults/ to see what I can avail. Im 24, single.