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If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where to?

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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:29:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', 'A')s an American, I would actually be careful about going ANYWHERE abroad. When TSHTF, and the American military is no longer holding its big stick over the rest of the world, Americans are likely to be none too popular, even those of us who opposed all the military insanity after 9/11. It would be especially bad if you move to a non-English speaking country and don't know the local language. You might as well paint a bulls eye right on your back.
.


You are ignorant of the positions of Americans in the rest of the world. As poor as many countries are locals distinguish quite clearly between the American government and its peoples. The reason for this is that most of the worlds inhabitants are held within intact communities and are not really getting their world view from the global media. So they judge you as an individual before identifying you with the politics of the country you come from. Americans who integrate with humility into local cultures have very little problem and are not targeted. I speak from living over three decades in developing countries including Muslim countries.

Your post reveals your own xenophobia that you are projecting out on the rest of the world.

Your point about lack of language though is 100% correct. If you don't speak the local language you will never plug into the humble local working class scene and be able to exploit the knowledge base. You will always be looked at as a gringo and all the services you need will be overpriced.

I wouldn't for example recommend anyone to emigrate to Latin America unless you speak very very good Spanish.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Pops » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:36:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I') wouldn't for example recommend anyone to emigrate to Latin America unless you speak very very good Spanish.

Nor to the Ozarks if you have all yer teeth...
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Bill Hicks » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:43:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', 'A')s an American, I would actually be careful about going ANYWHERE abroad. When TSHTF, and the American military is no longer holding its big stick over the rest of the world, Americans are likely to be none too popular, even those of us who opposed all the military insanity after 9/11. It would be especially bad if you move to a non-English speaking country and don't know the local language. You might as well paint a bulls eye right on your back.
.


You are ignorant of the positions of Americans in the rest of the world. As poor as many countries are locals distinguish quite clearly between the American government and its peoples.


Actually, I think I am very much on the mark when it come to evaluating how well ANY society treats outsiders at a time of severe economic distress. Muslims in America, for example, are probably not going to fare very well either. You may deplore the fact, but that's human nature.

If you are not native to whatever community you are living in when TSTF, you better hope that you have integrated well enough with the locals that they will accept you as having enough value to the community to be worth the food you consume. That will be equally true for an American or for anyone else.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby ki11ercane » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:45:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Livewire713', 'I')m staying put, all my family and friends live in my area. My parents are getting close to 80 and I couldn't leave them. One thing we do have going for us is my family own's a small cabin on a lake about 50 miles from where we all live so if things go south fast we would pack up and head up there. I think your best to stay put and get as prepared as you can for whatever happens. Unless you have a lot of money like SeaGypsy mentioned. You could buy an Island in Canada and setup your doomstead but unless I hit the lottery thats not going to happen.


Being Canadian, seeing these posts about "islands in Canada setting up a doomstead on" gives me a chuckle.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:48:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I') wouldn't for example recommend anyone to emigrate to Latin America unless you speak very very good Spanish.

Nor to the Ozarks if you have all yer teeth...


Detachable dentures might be useful for local adaptation to your area local area. Find a local dental technician who can retrieve that old knowledge of making individual removable teeth.

A couple of years ago in Kathmandu my wife had a severe tooth ache and we went to a local dentist. As we were waiting to see the dentist a couple of patients came in and smiled to the receptionist revealing their missing teeth. The receptionist opened a drawer full of hundreds of fake teeth. She started rummaging through the pile looking for the closest match for these customers who eventually bought a fake tooth for a couple of bucks.

The ones they tried and didn't fit were just thrown back into the drawer without getting washed first :)

My wife wanted to run out of there but she her pain kept her there. The dentist actually filled her cavity with relatively modern equipment.

This dentist served all market segments :)
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 13:58:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '
')Actually, I think I am very much on the mark when it come to evaluating how well ANY society treats outsiders at a time of severe economic distress. Muslims in America, for example, are probably not going to fare very well either. You may deplore the fact, but that's human nature.

If you are not native to whatever community you are living in when TSTF, you better hope that you have integrated well enough with the locals that they will accept you as having enough value to the community to be worth the food you consume. That will be equally true for an American or for anyone else.


I don't deplore the fact. The ex pats for example living here, with whom by the way I do not socialize, are often exploited for their cultural and language ignorance in spite of the fact that they mean well. Kind of just like Mexicans in America in reverse :)

But as Pops pointed out you can be an outsider in your own country if you arrive in the Ozarks with all your teeth gleaming white!

But I stand by what I said about rural communities around the world seeing you first as a person and second as the nation from where you come. This is not my ideology by the way but my experience. The reason for this is that rural communities around the world are quick to accept you for the integrity of who you are as an individual.

Americans on the other hand are mostly locked into a defensive polarization as a result of the collective media culture that has come to define what culture is in America. Your perception of living in a foreign country and being targeted as an American is flawed because of the way the media has penetrated into your psyche.

You would probably put a Canadian flag on your back pack if you went travelling abroad afraid to acknowledge your country of origin feeling locals would treat your aggressively.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby stephankrasner » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 14:02:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Here is an example from my past week here. I need a big industrial table saw to cut 6x6 blocks of timber we cut from trees on our land. I rented a portable saw mill this past year that we had to drag up the mountain but now I want my own big table saw for the remaining structures we plan on building. So I looked at big industrial table saws for cutting big blocks that run around $ 5,000.00. It turned out the local wood shop showed me the solution. The local metal machinist is preparing the axle with threaded end along with the bearings. Cost = $ 180.00. A 3.5 HP motor costs $ 300.00. Pullies and fanbelt under $ 50.00 We are having the table made of stout wood 4x4 harvested from our forest and the table top of a 16 caliber sheet metal with guide. The whole cost will run me under $ 600.00 with the 18 inch cutting blade. These are the resources still available locally in this village where I live.


Awesome! I've always enjoyed making my own custom tools and makeshift items for every day. But sadly, I don't think I would know what to do if I lost access to power tools to get the job done. That to me is one of the scariest things about a lack of energy is a lack of access to 220V and the power and speed in which I can make stuff.

I have thought many times about emigrating to another country. But I think it will not be much better in other countries versus the U.S.. One reason often noted on this board is that the arable land here is some of the best in the world and there's lots of it. Gardening is also the biggest hobby in the United States, I don't think it would take much to push people to rip up their azaleas in exchange for a small vegetable garden and a chicken coop. Secondly, we in the United States reside in a relatively sparsely populated continent compared with Asia and Europe. A financial crisis would make things more dangerous for a while, but ultimately I doubt things would remain permanently chaotic, nor do I think that the United states govt. is going anywhere. I also believe strongly that people in the United States have the will power necessary to make changes in society when they are needed.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 14:09:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', ' ') Muslims in America, for example, are probably not going to fare very well either. You may deplore the fact, but that's human nature.


In what country have immigrant Muslims had the greatest success in integrating and moving up the social ladder even occupying corporate positions?

The answer is the USA.

For all we talk about this xenophobic impulse in America we should remember that compared to Europe for example America is far more immigrant friendly than most developing countries. I still do believe that is a strength of the USA by the way in spite of the environmentalist in me that doesn't want the population to grow further.

In spite of those red necks from the Ozarks.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 14:19:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('stephankrasner', '
')I have thought many times about emigrating to another country. But I think it will not be much better in other countries versus the U.S.. One reason often noted on this board is that the arable land here is some of the best in the world and there's lots of it. Gardening is also the biggest hobby in the United States, I don't think it would take much to push people to rip up their azaleas in exchange for a small vegetable garden and a chicken coop. Secondly, we in the United States reside in a relatively sparsely populated continent compared with Asia and Europe. A financial crisis would make things more dangerous for a while, but ultimately I doubt things would remain permanently chaotic, nor do I think that the United states govt. is going anywhere. I also believe strongly that people in the United States have the will power necessary to make changes in society when they are needed.


I can assess America from having stepped outside of its borders for over 30 years and I have to agree with your assessment. I learned to fully appreciate the positive cultural and natural resources of the good old USA once I stood outside its borders.

Here in Panama I live at 1900 meters, in fertile volcanic soils with lots of water. This highland corner of the country is the dairy and vegetable bread basket of the country. And there are only 3.3 million inhabitants in Panama. There is still abundant native habitat. And you cant cut down a tree without a permit.

As important as these vital statistics might be however in Panama or the USA I think that where you physically emigrate to is less important than where you mentally emigrate to! You can stay in the USA and radically emigrate to a New humility in your relationships with your community and local resource base just as you can physically relocate but remain entrenched in your status quo.

I have seen enough examples of both that make the question of this thread really kind of irrelevant. Where ever you end up you have to be capable and willing to emigrate out of the subtle and not so subtle cultural entrenchment that keeps many of us unwilling or unable to adapt to these times that are changing........
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Bill Hicks » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 14:46:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '
')You would probably put a Canadian flag on your back pack if you went travelling abroad afraid to acknowledge your country of origin feeling locals would treat your aggressively.


Actually, I have traveled extensively abroad, including the third world, and have never denied being an American. But that is in a world in which the lights are still on and there is plenty of oil and food available provided you can afford it.

Very soon, however, that will no longer be the case anywhere.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 15:11:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '
')Very soon, however, that will no longer be the case anywhere.


I don't believe this. I see more and more disenfranchised folks, some of whom will transition and others who will permanently remain disabled to transition. The global economic system and our energy base however is resilient through this century. Of that I have little doubt. In our misuse of resources lies our greatest reserves of energy. We are capable of thriving with far less and economic and resource constraints will draw us back down to being resourceful, not from some ideological choice but by consequences. I have no crystal ball though. Kudzu Ape however is exceedingly resilient.

Don't count on things falling apart as an excuse of not taking the more honorable path of figuring out your own path toward an integral life within your community and being resourceful with far less.

I will listen to your response but I will go out on the limb and gently accuse you of holding your point of view because of your own doubts in your ability of thriving resourcefully in these most challenging of times?
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Bill Hicks » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 15:40:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '
')I will listen to your response but I will go out on the limb and gently accuse you of holding your point of view because of your own doubts in your ability of thriving resourcefully in these most challenging of times?


I have no doubt that I will not survive long in a post collapse world. But I am also a keen observer in what goes one around me, and what I see is the vast majority of the population is even less prepared to deal with it than I am.

The overwhelming majority of Americans will be completely helpless to help themselves when the government is no longer there to support them. To think that they are all going to shuffle off quietly into the good night is naive. I don't relish saying that, I just prefer to deal with the world as it really is rather than how I would like it to be.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 16:07:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '
')The overwhelming majority of Americans will be completely helpless to help themselves when the government is no longer there to support them. To think that they are all going to shuffle off quietly into the good night is naive. I don't relish saying that, I just prefer to deal with the world as it really is rather than how I would like it to be.


This vast population of Americans who swallowed hook line and sinker the consumer paradigm to the point they don't even understand that you can pick a fruit off a tree and eat it would appear to be doomed as your keen observation concludes.

Consequences will work on individuals and separate those who have the emotional and intellectual knowledge to transition. The rest as you say are doomed. My keen observations agree with you.

But so what? I am not aligned with the misaligned. Let those that perish with these new times perish quietly into the night. Or go violently down the tubes.

Don't forget that in the decades that this will play out a generation will be born and raised into adulthood exactly at the time when things will squeeze hardest. A new generation born with constraints will not be educated with the same consumerism as the generation that you currently see as doomed.

Successive generations of Kudzu Apre are constantly adapting to the realities of their generation. We just happen to have had about 3 generations in a row of folks believing in the illusion of this consumption culture. My keen observation tells me that the new generation emerging does not hold much hope in this continuing.

Our baby boomer generations are as you say rather helpless to transition. That is why you can distinguish yourself from them by breaking the tape recording that is telling you it is all so helpless.

Humans always adapt. This is the nature of Kudzu Ape. Do you think that humans on the energy descent will adapt any less than the thousands of previous generations?

I have faith in Americans ability to reinvent themselves as they have proven time and time again. They are less entrenched then many other cultures.

You know the greatest psychological challenge though? Americans have always proved this ability of reinvention while holding the fortunate position of being recognized as the worlds greatest society. A perception perhaps and not really based on any inherent superiority but nevertheless this is a powerful psychological position to be in. The Alpha male society on the planet.

Now we are moving collectively into a sub Alpha male position culturally speaking in comparison to other nations?

How does our resilience and ability to reinvent ourselves evolve going forward no longer being able to hold the mantra of being the worlds greatest society?

I think that is something we should keenly observe.

One thought from Baboon societies......It is the sub Alpha male that has the longest life span. greater than the alpha who is stressed out defending his position and greater than those at the bottom always having to fight for scraps.

So maybe America will do quite well and find it a relief once we drop the mantle of being the super power, pull back our military and direct resources inwards.

I think we will be surprised in many positive ways how America will evolve this century. I think we will thrive actually once the emerging generation reaches adulthood in 20 years.

The baby boomer generation is mostly lost though. They are collectively incapable of transitioning mostly. Too bad for them. I am a member of this generation by the way and can see where I had to tear down some pretty powerful memes in order to negotiate out of the confines that hold us all in a headlock.

I have been 4 hours at an airport because of delayed flight that is about to leave.......which is why I had time to post.....maybe I will check in again sometime up ahead.

Cheers
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 16:34:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'r')e your table saw
How many towns in the US could provide the local shops to help you put together an industrial grade table saw at this price????


Surprisingly more than you'd think; but you have to acknowledge first, that you acted as the general contractor for your small project, you got A,B, & C parts fabricated to your specs, put together essentially on-site. Just driving down the main street of my little town there are a couple metal fabricators that could do what you had done, if asked. I suspect they'd charge a bit more, labor is more expensive, but not thousands either. As the dollar corrects over the next few years, I suspect the exchange rate will zero out these differentials.

What is also true, is that Americans do not prefer doing it that way; they *like* to go to Home Depot, buy the big cardboard box, open it, and use it.
And I'm as guilty of this as any, even with stuff near my specialty, and for now, it makes sense. Economy as it is says I should do job A, and use the proceeds to buy finished products that I need from big warehouse stores and remote suppliers.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby AgentR11 » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 16:57:45

To the direct question of the thread; nah, too many generations of redneck and coonass in me. Stick an education on me, a fancy suit, or a nice watch... I still gotta be who I be. Without the heat, mosquitoes, pine trees, marshes, swamps, muddy rivers, oyster choked bays, alligators, gar, delicious trout and redfish, crappie and catfish, exciting bass of all stripes, deer smaller than poodles, and dogs as big as horses, where the civility of the city doesn't look outward to oppress the freedom of the hicks... I'd just not feel at home any place else.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 17:05:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')What is also true, is that Americans do not prefer doing it that way; they *like* to go to Home Depot, buy the big cardboard box, open it, and use it.
And I'm as guilty of this as any, even with stuff near my specialty, and for now, it makes sense. Economy as it is says I should do job A, and use the proceeds to buy finished products that I need from big warehouse stores and remote suppliers.


It is a paradox currently that a resilient economy keeps moving us toward less resilience and more dependency on finished goods and food where you just open the nice shiny box.

Most Americans *like* this as you say but it is worth questioning deeper what is this convenience that they *like*. I would posit that often it is a short term convenience that they *like* while a deeper sense of self reliance is lost and this most Americans probably intuitively feel as disquieting. Especially when they perceive the economy that sustains this all is teetering. So I would question the deeper psychological points on what Americans really like.

I think a lot of what Americans *like* is what makes them unsatisfied on a deeper level because they lack tools to function outside of a robust functioning consumer economy. The current anxiety level in American society confirms that this intuitive feeling of lacking in self reliance is alive and well.

That is precisely where I am hopeful. This is where the youngest generation will differentiate themselves. Young Kudzu Ape generations always have a keen sense of where the deficiency lies in their parents and older generations. They always invariably want to then differentiate themselves from where they perceive this deficiency.

That is why we usually fail miserably at predicting the future for we don't anticipate the generational dynamics

An odd but very adaptive trait of our species.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Ibon » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 17:11:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')o the direct question of the thread; nah, too many generations of redneck and coonass in me. Stick an education on me, a fancy suit, or a nice watch... I still gotta be who I be. Without the heat, mosquitoes, pine trees, marshes, swamps, muddy rivers, oyster choked bays, alligators, gar, delicious trout and redfish, crappie and catfish, exciting bass of all stripes, deer smaller than poodles, and dogs as big as horses, where the civility of the city doesn't look outward to oppress the freedom of the hicks... I'd just not feel at home any place else.


We are all destined to follow certain constraints or follow opportunities that lie in our family history. My dad was a menonite farmer, educated to feel somewhat in exile from the greater American society. He went to WWII and married my Italian mother who came to the US after the war and always felt somewhat in exile in her new country. My siblings and myself always felt this odd sense of exile in our own country growing up and I eventually found my destiny playing this out by living over seas and wandering far and wide. It is interesting how each of us are moved from family history. Sometimes I even question how much we are able to break out of certain tracks that is set from the generations we are born into and the personal family histories we all carry in ourselves.
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Bill Hicks » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 17:14:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '
')I have been 4 hours at an airport because of delayed flight that is about to leave.......which is why I had time to post.....maybe I will check in again sometime up ahead.

Cheers



Hope it wasn't because of the FAA furlough. There is little in this modern life more annoying than being stuck in an airport. Safe travels!
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby Cog » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 18:48:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bill Hicks', '
')I have been 4 hours at an airport because of delayed flight that is about to leave.......which is why I had time to post.....maybe I will check in again sometime up ahead.

Cheers



Hope it wasn't because of the FAA furlough. There is little in this modern life more annoying than being stuck in an airport. Safe travels!


Did you get kicked off of OilAge or are you just slumming?
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Re: If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where

Postby RedStateGreen » Sat 30 Jul 2011, 18:48:47

I've heard good things about Panama and Chile, especially Chile, who's actively recruiting foreign business. I have close family in Bolivia, though, so that would be a likely place if I absolutely had to leave the country. (slightly off topic: can one drive across the Panama canal?)

Or if it only got crazy here, I have family in California and in Louisiana, and acquaintances all over the world, so I'd have somewhere to go eventually.
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