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The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: US economic recovery is complete. Expansion has begun.

Unread postby Pops » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 18:29:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'R')egardless, this doesn't FUNDAMENTALLY address Cog's point

Cogs point:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('In the OP, Cog', 'W')e can't afford to extend the government teat to the mooch class anymore.
The Mooch class:
...
Anyone I don't particular care for
...

...we cut out the entitlements for the above people, we will have plenty of dough to keep in our own pockets.

That's his fundamental point. It ain't wise or original, or even much of a point, it's just greed. As Lore said, it doesn't matter.


But, having said that, I agree there should be a fundamental change in the whole tax/spend system. I think taxes should be somewhat progressive so I don't care for the "fair" tax even though it is anti-consumption.

But a flat tax accomplishes the same objective of simplifying the code and the IRS - I mean either you lie or you don't right? But mainly because it eliminates the built-in loophole of the fair tax that the wealthy so desire, it taxes income on capital, no matter how much you make or where it comes from or how much you consume. Which is of course why the plutocracy would fight tooth and nail to continue the Trickle-Up of wealth via a "consumption tax" - the definition of wealth, capital, etc being "money left over" after consumption.

Just a note to clarify, I admire people who want to be really wealthy and can pull it off, that is completely different than the structural plutocracy we are headed toward. Wealth inequality is IMO the biggest danger to democracy.

But Wait there's more!
What I'd also like to see along with the flat tax scheme is a system where the voters decide directly what the tax rate is to be and then let the representatives figure out how it gets allocated. If the rate is raised or lowered the change is feathered in over the 4 year period. So maybe every 4 years the ballot says:
For the next 4 years the tax rate will be:
_ 2% Less
_ The Same
_ 2% More

It could be more or less but you get the idea. This is different than the initiative process in CA where voters decide directly on taxes and spending, we have that now essentially because the reps give us both.
It's more like a business where the congress is the service provider and has an incentive to provide the most value to their constituents for a set amount of dollars or they get canned. None of the false choices and finger pointing and shill floor votes.

If you are a fiscal conservative then you vote against spending on moochers and your side gets to take credit for a surplus and you get reelected - none of the voting for spending that runs up the debt, then voting for tax breaks for the 1% then beating your chest on the champaign trail that you are conservative.

Ditto the Dems, they would need to fight for social programs and whatall against the conservatives who'd want to fund a military program or the Great Wall Of Texas.


http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinni ... irtax.html
http://www.karlonia.com/2007/04/16/fair ... -and-cons/
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 18:30:28

As someone well acquainted with the redneck / bloodlust crowd, I hate to say it, but you look like a well to do English farmer along with the expected eccentricities. Classy shotgun, rubber boots, and trying to make a silly point with the tinfoil hat give it away.

Rural not necessarily equal redneck, but rural plus redneck is a whole nuther level of crazy.

edit: in response to davep's photo
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby davep » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 18:43:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'A')s someone well acquainted with the redneck / bloodlust crowd, I hate to say it, but you look like a well to do English farmer along with the expected eccentricities. Classy shotgun, rubber boots, and trying to make a silly point with the tinfoil hat give it away.

Rural not necessarily equal redneck, but rural plus redneck is a whole nuther level of crazy.

edit: in response to davep's photo


Classy shotgun? It's a second-hand Turkish huglu...

The photo was for a tinfoil hat competition in a UK newspaper (yes, I won).

As for well to do, I managed to buy the place in 2007 for 100k euros after selling up in the UK in 2006 (I started with a 105% mortgage in the UK, it was pure luck that I sold at the top of the market - the place I bought was just over a quarter of the selling price in the UK).

And since when does wearing rubber boots equate to a well to do farmer?

After I bought the place (in France) I ended up penniless when contracts dried up and I was left getting food parcels from an Assistant Social. So cut the presumptive bullshit please.

I ended up taking a job 500km away in a different country because I never wanted to put my family through the same thing again. I've since been travelling over 1000km every weekend by car for over three years between home and work just to get the work done on the place to make it habitable.

So kindly keep your ignorant comments to yourself, thanks.
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby davep » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 18:57:51

Oh, and I come from Liverpool. I hit my teens in Thatcher's reign. All my friends had criminal records because there were literally no jobs. Heroin was the only respite at the time. I got out as soon as I could thankfully.

So stop bigging up your rednecks. People react to their circumstances. Mine were pretty grim in my youth and I am the only one amongst my friends who managed to escape our environment. Some good friends ended up dead. It's pretty pathetic to start a pissing contest about how hard your boys are frankly.
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 20:17:42

You need to purchase a sense of humor somewhere.
Seriously.
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Re: US economic recovery is complete. Expansion has begun.

Unread postby Lumpy » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 20:24:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')Do you lack love?

The path to Love

Worry for others

Pray for everyone

Listen to those who YOU have cast away

Forgive your transgressors

Work towards a brighter future

vm


Great stuff, VM. Thanks. Lumpy
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby davep » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 20:25:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'Y')ou need to purchase a sense of humor somewhere.
Seriously.


I guess that's your way of saying oops, I was somewhat askew in my analysis.

Fair enough. I didn't want to jump down your throat, but your assumptions pissed me off so I told you the reality of my life. English people are not all eccentric toffs, far from it.

Anyway, no harm done. I've vented my spleen, so let's forget about it.
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby Lumpy » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 20:34:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')I ended up taking a job 500km away in a different country because I never wanted to put my family through the same thing again. I've since been travelling over 1000km every weekend by car for over three years between home and work just to get the work done on the place to make it habitable.


Dave,
You have my empathy AND sympathy. In the past 6 years since we bought our little farm place, and undertook the way-bigger-and-more-expensive-than-EVER-expected job of reclaiming the land (from poison hemlock, etc), and the old farmhouse, I have had to take jobs away from the farm three times.

Not good for or easy on a marriage, but you do what you have to do. Even when it sucks.

Like Pops says, "Make a plan and work it."

As for the other stuff, I doubt that any of us is regret-free, and/or proud of every life decision and direction we have taken. I am certainly not! I hold onto the thought that what matters is where one is now (as a person), and where one is headed (as a person.)

Regards,
Lumpy
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 20:46:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')but your assumptions pissed me off

There were no assumptions in my post. It was strictly a comment on the picture.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') guess that's your way of saying oops,

Nope, but we can leave it at that. I say oops, when I mean oops.
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby Crusty » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 20:51:37

In Australia Globalization was described as Boats in a Harbor of all different sizes. They all go up with the tide. As PO is now starting to bite the tide is going out so all boat need to go down. As long as everyone is suffering I believe civil conflict will be as minimal as possible... but... as my Nan used to say, "You can't turn Shit into Ice-cream Michael."

Think that describes the PO situation nicely!!
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 23:02:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crusty', 'I')n Australia Globalization was described as Boats in a Harbor of all different sizes. They all go up with the tide.


Instead of euphemisms people should just look at the numbers. A trade surplus is good, bring on the free trade. But if it results in a deficit of capital and jobs.. well, that ain't a rising tide that's how nations go down the drain. It's just common sense, we used to know this even back in the 1800s when we protected our industry from cheap British imports.

Now every American is brainwashed to think free trade is good even though the numbers clearly say something else.
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Re: US economic recovery is complete. Expansion has begun.

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 23:24:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lumpy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')Do you lack love?

The path to Love

Worry for others

Pray for everyone

Listen to those who YOU have cast away

Forgive your transgressors

Work towards a brighter future

vm


Great stuff, VM. Thanks. Lumpy


Lol - Lumpy, these are NOT my OWN thoughts, but messages from the spirit World. Yes, these have come to me from up there. Whenever a connection is made, I ask for more information. :)
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 20 Jul 2011, 23:48:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ')

Now every American is brainwashed to think free trade is good even though the numbers clearly say something else.


Yet ( pretty much) every American is fat, has a car, cell, HDTV, computer with internet, place to live that will be huge or luxurious by the world's standards, yet does not do jack shit , just complaining and browsing internet all the time, even while driving and ( pretend) working.
What's not to like?
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby Livewire713 » Thu 21 Jul 2011, 00:17:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')ime for some austerity. We can't afford to extend the government teat to the mooch class anymore.

The Mooch class:

Government workers at all levels
Anyone collecting food stamps
Anyone collecting social security and/or medicare
Anyone I don't particular care for
Criminals
Anyone in the military
Military contractors

The way I see it, after we cut out the entitlements for the above people, we will have plenty of dough to keep in our own pockets.


I bet your a shitty tipper too. Like the rest of the conservaturds on this site.
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 21 Jul 2011, 00:47:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Livewire713', 'I') bet your a shitty tipper too. Like the rest of the conservaturds on this site.


Just wow.
You know the tipping behavior of all the conservatives who participate on peakoil.com.
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby Nefarious » Thu 21 Jul 2011, 02:29:19

Do political views really matter? Isn't it just arguing over how the deck chairs should be arranged on a sinking ship?
Does either point of view of conservative or liberal change the outcome of a system that is at it's core is destined to fail from the begining (fiat currency).
Whether you cut entitlements or the military,whether you raise taxes or cut spending you still have to increase the debt no matter what or the system starts to crash. The debt always has to increase in order to service the past debt. When we start paying off the debt we are destroying money causing deflation.The debt can never be repaid there isn't enough money in exsistence to pay off the debt.Now the debt is so big we have to print money just so we can have money to keep the system going.
So we either have no money to buy goods or we have lots of money that won't buy goods, either way it's an end game.

I'm more worried about getting off the ship personally and really no longer care about the deck chairs (ie politics).
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 21 Jul 2011, 02:48:20

There's a good reason to keep the government. Someone has to keep authorising the printing presses.
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Re: US economic recovery is complete. Expansion has begun.

Unread postby Lumpy » Thu 21 Jul 2011, 10:52:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '[')quote="Lumpy]Great stuff, VM. Thanks. Lumpy[/quote]

Lol - Lumpy, these are NOT my OWN thoughts, but messages from the spirit World. Yes, these have come to me from up there. Whenever a connection is made, I ask for more information. :)[/quote]


Well, VM, I never "accused" you of having these thoughts on your own. 8)
They are seriously reflective of words from the Bible ... just phrased a little differently.

Anyway, they are great, and I thank you for POSTING them -- and being open to them when they came to you.

Lumpy
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby joewp » Thu 21 Jul 2011, 11:13:22

I didn't read the whole thread, but somehow I get the feeling that the biggest mooch class is being overlooked here. I mean that class that has managed to corrupt the government so completely that they get the privilege of "loaning" money they don't have at interest, effectively creating it from thin air and expecting the other classes to labor long hours to pay back their fake money PLUS interest. They're the biggest leaches on society, sucking at the teats of government, business and labor and contributing nothing of value. They have managed to institute their ponzi scheme world-wide, and suck the life out of every known enterprise.

Of course, I mean the bankers. Those thieves who started by lending gold they didn't have at interest and now lend money they don't have and expect the people to slave to pay it back with interest. They've even made it so the currency is based on their debt scheme, and if a government ever manages to pay off all it's loans, the money supply would nearly disappear, sending the economy into depression.

This is first class mooching extraordinaire. Welfare queens have nothing on these suckers.
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Re: The Mooch Class (split from Recovery Complete)

Unread postby Pops » Thu 21 Jul 2011, 11:50:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', 'D')o political views really matter?

Government is not going to disappear tomorrow - and if it did there would be another in it's place the day after. People will always need to interact with other people and we will always do it as Us vs Them - so there'll always be politics too.

Government and politics will be more important going forward not less simply because we won't be rich enough to ignore it. In any society the pain/comfort level is based on the amount of surplus, without cheap oil the surplus may be thin to none and that is where governments begin to cast a long shadow.

We are already in a dangerous place since capital is held in increasingly fewer hands and most jobs are predicated on extreme levels of consumption. And of course all jobs depend on large energy inputs. Add in specialization, automation and global trade and the possibility of gracefully falling back to a lower level of income along with a fall in economic activity is impossible for most workers.

If that system providing our living falters, our society will become much more stratified with the middle hollowing out even faster than is currently the case. By actively supporting today, a style of government that protects the 1% plutocracy at the expense of everyone else, one assumes they will be part of the 1%, but is that realistic? I'd be surprised if anyone posting here is part of the 1% and in fact even the 91-99%ers are barely staying even:

Image

Look around, over the last 40 years it isn't the Moochers who amassed a greater and greater portion of wealth and control, it's the 1% - especially with the current make up of the SCOTUS. And the way the truly wealthy have accomplished that feat is by playing on the greed of the middle and the small minded - the very people whose wealth and power they are taking away.

Pretty clever.

Simply because most 21st Century Rich Worlders have had the luxury of ignoring government doesn't mean we're immune to government oppression or government complicity in de facto control by the 1%. I don't know if irreversible energy decline begins next week or next decade but our current course of willfully transferring wealth and power upwards - to punish the Moochers - is creating a plutocracy that will be the downfall of democracy.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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