[Keith_McClary]

The Subprime Debacle, Act II$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;As soon as the White House announced the pocket veto...the very next day!...Bank of America halted all foreclosures, nationwide.

"Why do you think that happened? Because the banks are in trouble...again. Over the same thing as last time...the damned mortgage-backed securities!

"The reason the banks are in the tank again is, if they've been foreclosing on people they didn't have the legal right to foreclose on, then those people have the right to get their houses back. And the people who bought those foreclosed houses from the bank might not actually own the houses they paid for.

"And it won't matter if a particular case...or even most cases...were on the up -and up: It won't matter if most of the foreclosures and evictions were truly due to the homeowner failing to pay his mortgage. The fraud committed by the foreclosure mills casts enough doubt that, now, all foreclosures come into question. Not only that, all mortgages come into question.

"People still haven't figured out what all this means. But I'll tell you: if enough mortgage-paying homeowners realize that they may be able to get out of their mortgage loans and keep their houses, scott-free? That's basically a license to halt payments right now, thank you. That's basically a license to tell the banks to take a hike.

"What are the banks going to do...try to foreclose and then evict you? Show me the paper, Mr. Banker, will be all you need to say.

[jdmartin]

It never ceases to amaze me that there are actually people out there, people who I *assume* are not part of the gilded class, that profess that individuals need to be mandated to keep their obligations at any cost, yet businesses, corporations and the like can do whatever the hell they want to do and it's just OK.

First things first: yes, the people couldn't afford those houses should have never got them. And the banks should have never lent the money.

On to the actual post: why shouldn't the bank have to prove it's legal liability?

I'll use myself as an example. I have a mortgage on my house. I've lived in the same house for 16 years. I'm halfway through the mortgage. I put down a significant amount of money on my house, and almost 70% of the value of the house is my equity, the remainder is the mortgage. I have always made all my payments, on time (early, actually). I have a credit score well over 800, with not a single late payment or other problem, in 25 years of credit history. I originally took my mortgage out with a local bank, and that was who I made my payments to for about the first 5 years. Then my mortgage started getting sold like a high-mileage car. The "servicer" of my mortgage changed 5 times in 10 years, 3 times in the last 4 years alone. Currently my mortgage holder is CitiMortgage. They bought the mortgage Spring 2009.

About a month after they bought my mortgage, they sent me a letter notifying me that I had a late payment and was being charged $26.25 for the late payment. So I called them up to find out what they were talking about. They told me it was a late charge from a late payment to one of the companies that had owned my mortgage about 4 years previous . I told them I've never had a late payment, had all my records, nor had ever received a letter from that company or the one prior to CitiMortgage about a late payment, so I asked them what month & year payment they were talking about. They told me "We don't have that information, we just have the information that you were late one time". I told them they were going to have to prove it to me before I would pay, and I asked what would happen if I don't pay? They said the charge would stay on my record and I wouldn't be able to get my clear title without paying it. "Fine", I said - I'm going to ignore this charge for the next 14 years, and if it's still there at the end, after 14 years of financial erosion of the $26, I'll just go ahead and pay it at that time. In the meantime, once a month, I get a letter from CitiMortgage advising me that I have this $26 charge on my account that's going to stay there forever until I pay. I'm going to make sure they spend at least $26 in postage and materials trying to collect their bullshit $26 charge that I don't owe.

Now, someone tell me why they shouldn't have to prove when I incurred this late charge? I'm supposed to just take their word for it? I feel the same way about the foreclosure process. If the paperwork is screwed up, how is that the homeowner's fault? If they're going to foreclose, and the homeowner has equity in the house, absolutely they should have to prove without question that they a)have legal right to foreclose, b) they own the mortgage, and c) the homeowner has not made the payments.

[gollum]

We are talking about the taking of someones house here, hell yes the bank needs to have every single T crossed and I dotted before they do that. Just look at how the poster above was treated over a lousy $26 and tell me technicalities shouldn't count. I'm glad that for once Obama stood up for working people and vetoed legislation that would have done otherwise, and I will be voting straight D right down the ballot this year.

[eXpat]

Bank of America's Countrywide Accused of Racketeering in Homeowners' Suit
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ank of America Corp. and its Countrywide Home Loans unit were accused of racketeering in a lawsuit filed by two Indiana residents claiming that perjured affidavits were used to foreclose on their home.

Dwayne Ransom Davis and Melisa Davis filed the complaint yesterday in federal court in Indianapolis. Their lawyer, Irwin Levin, confirmed the filing in a phone interview. The filing couldn’t be independently verified.

“The defendants and their cohorts engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity in which they routinely and repeatedly prepared perjured affidavits in order to rapidly churn foreclosures,” the couple said in the complaint.

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'W')e are talking about the taking of someones house here, hell yes the bank needs to have every single T crossed and I dotted before they do that. Just look at how the poster above was treated over a lousy $26 and tell me technicalities shouldn't count. I'm glad that for once Obama stood up for working people and vetoed legislation that would have done otherwise, and I will be voting straight D right down the ballot this year.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'F')irst things first: yes, the people couldn't afford those houses should have never got them. And the banks should have never lent the money.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fiddlerdave', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he rule of law and the rules of property rights continue to be eroded in this country until people feel entitled to do whatever they want: legal or not, moral or not.

[evilgenius]

I think it's great that everybody wants to hold the banks feet to the fire insofar as their claims actually having veracity goes, but that's not really what I was talking about. I was trying to suggest that there is a middle ground that can be found when the banks are legitimately owed and the homeowners want to stay, but cannot afford to pay for the place in full even if they do get refinancing relief. Some homeowners will not even be able to meet this relaxed standard. I have no idea what those people would do.

I think what this means is kind of like the tale of Solomon and the splitting of the baby. The only thing is the title to a property can be split. The issue then becomes who gets what rights and in what proportion does the title get divided.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')nother way to look at it is that the real Atlas is the working class. Think of all the banksters, with their 140 billion in bonuses, who quote Rand -- what value do they add to our society? Are they not just vampire squid, leeching off the productivity of working folks?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', ' ')some sort of elitist homage; they clearly have never read it, or if they did then it went completely over their heads

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). The best or most skilled members of a group"

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Guess I'm not one of her apologists then...

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')nteresting view of the "self made man" whom Ayn Rand lauded: http://michaelprescott.net/hickman.htm

[Ludi]

I think a lot of Rand-not-an-apologists actually believe this quote, and apply it to the wealthy:

"Wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think." -Ayn Rand

Look! He's wealthy, therefore he must be smart! (and hard-working ,etc)

(see Outcast Searcher, one hard-workin' guy!)

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')"Shoot the messenger" arguments (a.k.a ad hominem) don't impress me much...

[gollum]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') think a lot of Rand-not-an-apologists actually believe this quote, and apply it to the wealthy:

"Wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think." -Ayn Rand

Look! He's wealthy, therefore he must be smart! (and hard-working ,etc)

(see Outcast Searcher, one hard-workin' guy!)

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', '
')
some wealthy stupid people I know of

Paris Hilton
Brittney Spears
GW Bush


Wealth is no sign of intelligence in modern day America

[Ludi]

Sorry, I'm just having way too much fun finding nifty Ayn Rand quotes.

I think this one is especially apropos of our day and age:

"So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?" - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'N')o, I don't imagine evaluating a philosophy by looking at what inspired it would impress you much.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')orry, I'm just having way too much fun finding nifty Ayn Rand quotes.

I think this one is especially apropos of our day and age:

"So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?" - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged