[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')
I'm thinking more along the lines of having too much cleverness and not enough wisdom.

Sort of like the inmate who is smart enough to escape from prison but not smart enough to stay out of prison in the first place.

[Newfie]

Only skimmed through it all but I like the way you are thinking BigTex.

I think there might be a way for us to confer some advantage to our off spring, but I don't have the time to fiddle with the idea right now. Maybe next week.

Cheers.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') can't agree with your (apparent) proposition that civilization is humans' ultimate destiny.

[americandream]

It depends on what he means by "civilisation". Generally, it merely signifies the rise of civil society, in which norms are prescribed to ensure certain basic standards affording all of us a certain degree of security during our brief forays on earth.

One can then add the economic element to said order at which point we would have a communal or capitalist civilisation, or a fuedual one (such as Islam where summary punishment which we view as anathema from our liberal capitalist orders, coexists with the service of civil needs). Likewise in our liberal capitalist orders, a singular case of widespread amnesia sits comfortably with our sense of civil order even whilst we rampage across the world resourcing our appetite.

So as you see, the term "civilisation" is a tricky one in as much as we can be "civilised" yet bear certain attributes of the barbarian. So to that extent, I agree that the "civilisation" project is a WIP as we are increasingly compelled by the consequences of these contradictions (with for example, the (guaranteed) rise in poverty in the Islamic world and the West, both resting as they do on illogical practices). The alternative of course, is species extinction but I suspect the genetic imperative to survive is a great inventor of adaptation.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') can't agree with your (apparent) proposition that civilization is humans' ultimate destiny.

Remember that until a few hundred years ago the minority of human cultures had been civilizations. "Humans" as a species did not invent civilization, just a few groups did. The rest lived other ways.

And because we're getting into this kind of philosophical discussion, not based on anthropology, I will drop out of it and leave you to your destiny.

[Nano]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I') think it' s rather simple. There are now too many of us and we eat and crap too much. That wouldn't be so much of a problem if our genes didn't desperately want us to procreate, and our endocrine system and anatomy weren't so ready to oblige.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'I')t depends on what he means by "civilisation". Generally, it merely signifies the rise of civil society, in which norms are prescribed to ensure certain basic standards affording all of us a certain degree of security during our brief forays on earth.

[americandream]

That sounds suspiciously like a civil society designed to serve the wants of a few. Is that a civilisation? On the spectrum of what constitutes civil society from the rudimentary communes of our caveman ancestors with their consistent rituals back to more contemporary communes with their consistent rules, I would concede that a civil order, along the way, and devoted to the wants of a few is a form of civilisation operating at some rudimentary level of commonality.

But yes, I can see your misgivings.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') simply don't debate about civilization/non-civilization anymore, which is why I'm bowing out of this conversation. Just want to clarify what I was actually talking about.

[americandream]

Read "The Plague Species" by Reg Morrison. An extremely thought provoking, refreshingly non-anthropocentric look at our achievements and the role played by DNA in all of this, including our propensity to be mystic. The whole civilisational project of humankind is placed in some context, one which conforms to my view that externalities will once again compel an about face in human development, one we can only but catch glimpses of.

Morrison of course posits the intriguing theory that we are in an inescapable descent into the plague stage, a process apparently fundamental to DNA evolution through the ages. A sort of carrying medium in a necessary terminal mode.

Good read for those interested in more mundane takes on the human animal (as opposed to ones that revolve around being chosen, alien or somehow otherwise special).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') simply don't debate about civilization/non-civilization anymore, which is why I'm bowing out of this conversation. Just want to clarify what I was actually talking about.

[Ibon]

If I look deeply into the rhythms and tides of human cultural evolution I can allow myself the indulgence to imagine a world that follows after the technological trajectory runs its course and the consequences purge us of our arrogance that we can ultimately conquer and control our mother planet. That consequences of biblical proportions will tame and humble this insatiable dominance and that submission to work within the ecological principals of our mother planet will be a submission of reverence and not defeat. That our technologies will be directed toward stewardship of our planet where we find ourselves as humans in a more balanced brotherhood with our fellow creatures with whom we share this planet.

However short we may ever reach as a species to these idealized goals I nevertheless hold onto this spiritual trajectory for our species cultural evolution. For me all the destabilizing events and consequences that I see on the short term horizon are all really just teachers and guide posts toward this more enlightened place.

Some may claim that this is all delusional and only an imagined world to retreat to in your mind because history reveals the raw truth of our human hubris which will in the end only do us in. That sentiment for me is THE MAIN DOOMER FALLACY.

[Carlhole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'S')ome may claim that this is all delusional and only an imagined world to retreat to in your mind because history reveals the raw truth of our human hubris which will in the end only do us in. That sentiment for me is THE MAIN DOOMER FALLACY.

[Xenophobe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')Gaia created the human "virus". Get it over it.

[Carlhole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')t is somewhat ironic that Carlhole attacks Malthuisan pessimists with a "red herring, a distraction. Their numbers are in decline because of people like Carlhole.

[Xenophobe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')bon was quite clear.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '
')
Well..okay....you mean...like its worked okay so far so lets keep doing it?