[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'D')ropping science and technology? Can anyone name any selective pressures that will favor reduced brain size and complexity?

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'D')ropping science and technology? Can anyone name any selective pressures that will favor reduced brain size and complexity?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'D')ropping science and technology? Can anyone name any selective pressures that will favor reduced brain size and complexity?

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'D')ropping science and technology? Can anyone name any selective pressures that will favor reduced brain size and complexity?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')Jared Diamond seems to think that Westerners are not as intelligent as tribesmen because the pressure to survive, and thus the evolutionary pressures, have been reduced. You have to read him carefully to see where he says it, but it is there in "Guns, Germs, and Steel."

[Ibon]

I enjoyed reading the responses to my question. I sincerely believe that as we have externalized our survival to technology and our modern civilization we have indeed disrupted at least our cultural and perhaps eventually our genetic evolution that was being driven by our ability to innovate. As Ludi mentions this an essential component of being human.

So it is more than rhetoric this dumming down of our culture. It is perhaps naive to simply blame this though on corporations, media, conspiracies by the elite etc. Taking survival out of the equation makes black bears pretty stupid also that just hang around town dumps for their food instead of foraging and mapping out their territories for salmon, blueberries etc. So I would venture to say that technology and our ability to exploit huge energy resources has had a dummning down affect as this takes the survival element out of the picture.

I would say though that what we have in the past 100 years is an anomoly and if we believe in the severity of consequences coming upon us this century than we can expect the catalyst of survival to get us back on track of selecting once again for intelligence and innovation. Right or wrong?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'w')e can expect the catalyst of survival to get us back on track of selecting once again for intelligence and innovation. Right or wrong?

[lper100km]

The question of knowledge preservation is imo, one of the key issues to be faced in the doomer scenario. As Ludi has pointed out, vast numbers of city dwellers have no concept of growing crops or raising livestock. They have had no need of this for several generations. Survival skills now mean little more than sussing out the specials and poking your shopping cart in front of the next person.

Enter the industrial and technological ages. What will happen to all this 200 years of accumulated knowledge? Can it be preserved when power supplies become uncertain and civil society becomes unruly? If it is preserved, can it be accessed? Will education remain a priority or will it suffer irreparable damage? Even if knowledge can be preserved, will it be intelligible after several generations of societal disruption? Will essential knowledge be simply no more than can be passed on by word of mouth? Will superstition and religions fill the mental space where logical thought and science was once paramount?

Knowledge is more powerful than any other factor in preserving humanity from a descent into Olduvai. Potentially, we’re not much more than a generation away from losing it.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', 't')he mental space where logical thought and science was once paramount?

[lper100km]

That's the problem with generalisations - they're too easily challenged.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lper100km', 't')he mental space where logical thought and science was once paramount?

[Carlhole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '.')..humanity is dummer than dirt...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')It is possible to ascribe humanities failure to deal with our over population and all the flow down issues as a failure to think beyond the immediate future. It is perfectly logical that we don't have that capacity, there was never a need for it.

[BigTex]

I don't know exactly how this fits into the "getting dumber" discussion, but it seems to me that we are diverting more and more of the intelligent people to the task of trying to outsmart other intelligent people (e.g., spies in the old USSR, lawyers in industrialized economies, and more recently financial wizards on Wall Street), rather than in trying to make real advances in knowledge (scientists, engineers, tinkering inventors, etc.).

I think the example of the bear developing the ability to scavenge for food in dumpsters and garbage cans rather than in functioning well in his natural habitat is a great illustration of how the modern world can reduce an impressive creature to a pathetic state. Every time I go to a zoo, I get depressed, especially when I see the primates. They always have this look on their faces like "this sucks."

Perhaps it is simply evidence of the old trick of one group of humans acting as predators with respect to another weaker group of humans. After all (to paraphrase Orwell), human are at the top of the food chain, but some humans are closer to the top than others.

As I recall, Catton referred to modern humanity as a new species he called "homo colossus" because we had supplemented our evolutionary improvements with dramatic industrial accessories that allowed us to make adaptive changes to our environment that would have otherwise taken millions of years.

If anything, we may be getting smarter, but in a pathological way. Things like building an economy that is premised on a level of continuing and perpetual expansion that is comically unsustainable.

I suppose, though, that we evolved to take care of our individual, family and tribal needs as they currently exist. Evolution apparently didn't select for those who could identify and solve inter-generational problems with long lead times.

[sparky]

.
science and technology can only survive by being used ,
a lot of knowledge in some data base is quickly esoteric
read " Canticle for Leibowitz" in which a religious order keep some broken knowledge of technology
but worry about the scroll-work more than about the content

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', ' ')Evolution apparently didn't select for those who could identify and solve inter-generational problems with long lead times.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')
Therefore, humanity is dummer than dirt when it comes to long term, strategic thinking. Statistically speaking of the group of course. Not talking about you and me, and I ain't so sure about me.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')It is possible to ascribe humanities failure to deal with our over population and all the flow down issues as a failure to think beyond the immediate future. It is perfectly logical that we don't have that capacity, there was never a need for it.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')
Therefore, humanity is dummer than dirt when it comes to long term, strategic thinking. Statistically speaking of the group of course. Not talking about you and me, and I ain't so sure about me.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')But there is no guarantee. Nature does not select the "best." Nature only selects for those best adapted to the current environment. We need to thread a tight needle here. We have to figure out how to survive TODAY, TOMORROW, and what comes next. And do it better than those who are best adapted for TODAY alone, and do that every day for generations.