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Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 09:01:19

LOL

The problem with pretending, here in the country with some of the lowest tax rates and greatest guarantees of individual liberty in the rich world, that somehow we are suffering under some heavy burden and would be better off with a government akin to Somalia's is silly.

The product of too much couch time listening to the latest outrage of the day . . couch time enabled by the very system being bitched about constantly.

Does it ever occur to anyone that what I call "trolling" here at PO.com - "posting a message designed to elicit an emotional response" is really the primary method of gaining audience share in most modern media, even and increasingly; "especially" in so-called "fair and balanced" news reporting? I don't just mean the network whose farcical use of that DoubleSpeak slogan makes Orwell seem uncannily prescient, but all outlets?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 10:52:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you speaking in an esoteric way, Yeah I get it, but for my lifetime I would like to have the fruit of my labor not be solely at the whim of the crown. I'm also against slavery, so I don't want my labor to be taken from me and given to others with whom I have no contract.

Don't pay the man property taxes OWED and see what happens.

Exactly, I think a ban on property taxes should have been in the bill of rights. I had a conversation with a few property owners in my area and told them that we basically rent our land from the government and they looked at me like I came from Mars. Then I explained it to them.


A fairly popular school of Libertarian thought is the Georgist idea that all taxes should be property taxes, which is another one of those Von Mises Institute ideas that have some merit in theory but are really just crackpot ideas that amount to baby pacifiers for rich patrons trying to wish away the income tax.

The other ALEC crackpot idea being pushed in the GOP controlled states is the elimination of state income taxes and replacing them with a 15% sales tax, which would of course weigh most heavily of the poor and retirees.
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 14:00:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 't')he elimination of state income taxes and replacing them with a 15% sales tax, which would of course weigh most heavily of the poor and retirees.


These kind of taxes are found in ALL the social welfare states of Western Europe. They are VAT (value added) taxes not sales taxes

I'm in Copenhagen Denmark right now and the VAT IS PAINFULLY HIGH
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Lore » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 16:15:05

They must be all sadists then in Denmark because if it were so painful then why are they the happiest people on the planet?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]World Happiness Report 2013 Ranks Happiest Countries Around Globe

The happiest people in the world apparently reside in northern Europe, according to a 156-nation survey published by the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network.

Released Monday, the 2013 World Happiness Report ranks the happiest countries around the globe, with Denmark, Norway and Switzerland leading the pack. Among North American countries, Canada took sixth place, while Mexico (16) slightly outranked the U.S. (17).
------------------------
In 2012, Denmark also took the top spot, receiving the highest combined score on a scale of zero through 10. This year, scores range from 2.936 (Togo) to 7.693 (Denmark). Compared to last year, the 2013 World Happiness Report includes more detailed analysis in a bid to guide policymakers to take the well-being of citizens into account when making decisions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/0 ... 94041.html
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 17:15:26

iMarijuana - Christiania in Copenhagen lol
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 18:23:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'L')OL

The problem with pretending, here in the country with some of the lowest tax rates and greatest guarantees of individual liberty in the rich world, that somehow we are suffering under some heavy burden and would be better off with a government akin to Somalia's is silly.

The product of too much couch time listening to the latest outrage of the day . . couch time enabled by the very system being bitched about constantly.

Does it ever occur to anyone that what I call "trolling" here at PO.com - "posting a message designed to elicit an emotional response" is really the primary method of gaining audience share in most modern media, even and increasingly; "especially" in so-called "fair and balanced" news reporting? I don't just mean the network whose farcical use of that DoubleSpeak slogan makes Orwell seem uncannily prescient, but all outlets?


I'm hearing you Pops, lots of trolling going on all through the site.

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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 18:51:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'R')eleased Monday, the 2013 World Happiness Report ranks the happiest countries around the globe, with Denmark, Norway and Switzerland leading the pack. Among North American countries, Canada took sixth place, while Mexico (16) slightly outranked the U.S. (17).
------------------------
In 2012, Denmark also took the top spot, receiving the highest combined score on a scale of zero through 10. This year, scores range from 2.936 (Togo) to 7.693 (Denmark).


By coincidence I'm in Copenhagen right now. Just finished the Kilimanjaro climb and then the Serengeti safari in Tanzania and hopped KLM from Arusha back to Europe for Xmas

No doubt Denmark is a lovely little country. Who wouldn't be happy living in a country full of beautiful tall leggy blondes like Denmark
Last edited by Plantagenet on Sun 22 Dec 2013, 18:53:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Lore » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 18:52:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'R')eleased Monday, the 2013 World Happiness Report ranks the happiest countries around the globe, with Denmark, Norway and Switzerland leading the pack. Among North American countries, Canada took sixth place, while Mexico (16) slightly outranked the U.S. (17).
------------------------
In 2012, Denmark also took the top spot, receiving the highest combined score on a scale of zero through 10. This year, scores range from 2.936 (Togo) to 7.693 (Denmark).


By coincidence I'm in Copenhagen right now. Just finished the Kilimanjaro climb and then the Serengeti safari

No doubt Denmark is a lovely little country. Who wouldn't be happy living in a country full of beautiful tall leggy blondes like Denmark


Blah, blah, blah.. tell me another story. You're an absolute fake in more then one way.

One more thing, get some help... I mean it!
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Dec 2013, 23:49:43

You don't think Copenhagen is full of beautiful tall blonde women? You don't think that's a cause for joy and happiness?

And as far as my traveling I do a winter trip every year. It's fricken cold in Alaska with two hours of daylight Over the last few years I've done winter trips to Peru Greece Portugal etc. this year I went to Africa and now I'm in Copenhagen. I'm in a little one star hotel about two blocks from tivoli gardens which looked lovely last night by the way 8)
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 23 Dec 2013, 17:35:36

NPR has a program, Here and Now, that interviewed the Mayor of Memphis. None was making the point that Atlanta's old style pensions are 70% funded! which is better! much better than many comparable cities or even some states.

When asked if the Detroit solution was "fair" his response was candid and blunt and refreshing.

""Fair" is not in the dictionary."

Paraphrasing now, As much as we regret the situation, reality says we cannot meet these obligations, we need to deal with survival.

I give him kudos for plain speaking.

Found a quote...http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/12/23/w ... phis-mayor

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n the fairness of cities and states cutting pensions

“When it comes to situations like this, fair is a word that is not in the vocabulary, quite frankly. It’s just a matter of survival. And when it comes down to how’s the city going to survive, the first casualties are values such as fairness.”

“Until the Detroit bankruptcy it was unthinkable, and in Illinois, until the legislature changed the law, it was unthinkable that anybody would ever touch a vested pension interest. But this is a new world. I think the abnormal will become the new normal. I just don’t think that anything will be sacrosanct when it comes to public benefits anymore…tragically what’s fair is not going to be the order of the day.”
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 23 Dec 2013, 17:50:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')araphrasing now, As much as we regret the situation, reality says we cannot meet these obligations, we need to deal with survival.


But they are legally binding, the retirees MUST be paid.
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 23 Dec 2013, 17:51:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'R')eleased Monday, the 2013 World Happiness Report ranks the happiest countries around the globe, with Denmark, Norway and Switzerland leading the pack. Among North American countries, Canada took sixth place, while Mexico (16) slightly outranked the U.S. (17).
------------------------
In 2012, Denmark also took the top spot, receiving the highest combined score on a scale of zero through 10. This year, scores range from 2.936 (Togo) to 7.693 (Denmark).


By coincidence I'm in Copenhagen right now. Just finished the Kilimanjaro climb and then the Serengeti safari in Tanzania and hopped KLM from Arusha back to Europe for Xmas

No doubt Denmark is a lovely little country. Who wouldn't be happy living in a country full of beautiful tall leggy blondes like Denmark


Daddy's little trust funder.....
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 23 Dec 2013, 18:13:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')araphrasing now, As much as we regret the situation, reality says we cannot meet these obligations, we need to deal with survival.


But they are legally binding, the retirees MUST be paid.



Until the legislature changes the law.

Ho Ho Ho!
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 23 Dec 2013, 18:41:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')araphrasing now, As much as we regret the situation, reality says we cannot meet these obligations, we need to deal with survival.


But they are legally binding, the retirees MUST be paid.



Until the legislature changes the law.

Ho Ho Ho!



Constitutional Protections

No explicit constitutional protection for public pension benefits, but courts provide protection based on impairment of contract principles, holding that changes can be made to a retirement plan as long as the changes do not impair vested rights. Blackwell v. The Quarterly County Court of Shelby County, 622 S.W.2d 535 (Tenn. 1981) (holding that public pension benefits may be adjusted when necessary to protect or enhance the actuarial soundness of the plan, provided that no such modification can adversely affect an employee who has complied with all conditions necessary to be eligible for a retirement allowance); Davis v. Wilson County, 70 S.W.3d 724 (Tenn. 2002)(holding that health care benefits amounted to welfare benefits that did not automatically vest and could be altered or terminated by county at any time). (TN CONST., Article 1, §20) Source: Robert Klausner, Esq., State Constitutional Protections for Public Sector Retirement Benefits


http://www.nasra.org/tn
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 23 Dec 2013, 19:35:44

VM, that appears to no longer be the case. Not taking sides here, just reporting what I'm reading.

Undoubtedly this ruling will be appealed, but for now there is the potential to reduce pensions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/us/de ... .html?_r=0

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')DETROIT — In a ruling that could reverberate far beyond Detroit, a federal judge held on Tuesday that this battered city could formally enter bankruptcy and asserted that Detroit’s obligation to pay pensions in full was not untouchable.....

The judge, Steven W. Rhodes, dealt a major blow to the widely held belief that state laws preserve public pensions, and his ruling is likely to resonate in Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and many other American cities where the rising cost of pensions has been crowding out spending for public schools, police departments and other services.

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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby phaster » Mon 03 Feb 2014, 20:19:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Surf', 'P')ensions is are becoming a big issue for local,state, and the US government. San Jose California police department is currently spending about 10% of the yearly budget paying retired police officers. Many people are aware of Detroit's problems. However most people are not aware of the unfunded liability of the federal government:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he federal government last year made more than a half-trillion dollars in future commitments, valued in 2010 dollars that will cost far more to pay in coming decades. Added last year:
•$107 billion in retirement benefits accumulated by current workers.
•$106 billion in new benefits granted to veterans.
•More than $300 billion in the snowballing expense of previous retirement promises that have no source of funding.


And to top it off
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n all, the government committed more money to the 10 million former public servants last year than the $690 billion it paid to 54 million Social Security beneficiaries.


Source: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-10-11/federal-retirement-pension-benefits/50592474/1

The more I look into it , I am finding that it is a global issue. Many country governments have the same problem, including Greece. Most governments offer pensions to their employees. Most private companies have stopped offering pensions.


I pretty much came up with the same conclusion and that is why I think the effects of a mismanaged economy (due to pension obligations) are going have larger social disruption influences than "peak oil"

in other words, because political power will kiss the ass of older retired workers, there will be little political will to "invest" in energy and education for example
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 03 Feb 2014, 21:16:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', ' ')political power will kiss the ass of older retired workers, there will be little political will to "invest" in energy and education for example


I don't think older retired workers want their ass kissed.

They just want the retirement benefits that the local, state and federal governments are contractually obligated to pay to them.

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Governments should have to live up to their contracts just like everybody else
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby phaster » Mon 03 Feb 2014, 22:09:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', ' ')political power will kiss the ass of older retired workers, there will be little political will to "invest" in energy and education for example


I don't think older retired workers want their ass kissed.

They just want the retirement benefits that the local, state and federal governments are contractually obligated to pay to them.

Image

Governments should have to live up to their contracts just like everybody else


it would be nice if government kept its word, but the simple fact of the matter is it all comes down to the basic "human nature" problem of over promising and under delivering and realize something has to give when expectations exceed supply

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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby theluckycountry » Tue 25 Jun 2024, 18:11:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'B')y coincidence I'm in Copenhagen right now. Just finished the Kilimanjaro climb and then the Serengeti safari

No doubt Denmark is a lovely little country. Who wouldn't be happy living in a country full of beautiful tall leggy blondes like Denmark


Blah, blah, blah.. tell me another story. You're an absolute fake in more than one way.

One more thing, get some help... I mean it!


They had you pegged long ago plant lol. You're full of it, absolutely Full of it Ha Ha.

Retirement Nightmare! Hordes Of Older Americans May Need To Go Back To Work Just To Survive

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Social Security program was instituted to help elderly Americans thrive during their retirement years. Unfortunately, millions upon millions of retired Americans are finding that their monthly Social Security payments are simply not enough as the cost of living spirals out of control.

One recent survey found that a whopping 85 percent of U.S. adults now consider inflation to be one of the most important political issues that we are facing, and seniors are being hit particularly hard. In fact, a different survey that was just conducted by the Motley Fool discovered that 44 percent of retired Americans are thinking of going back to work because they need more money to survive…

Needless to say, trying to go back to work in your seventies, eighties or nineties is not an easy thing to do. But if you have to choose between going back to work or not eating three meals a day, I think that the choice is easy. Today, the average Social Security payment is less than half of what the average retired American spends each month.

The average monthly Social Security payment in 2024 is $1,907, according to the Social Security Administration. But that is just a fraction of the $4,818 that Americans age 65 and older reported spending in 2022. At this point, our politicians in Washington have borrowed so much money that we are spending more than a trillion dollars a year just in interest on the national debt. In fact, we now spend more on interest on the national debt than we do on national defense. But instead of slowing down, our politicians just continue to borrow and spend trillions upon trillions of dollars so inflation is not going away any time soon.
https://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/ret ... e_vignette

The social contract: You pay your taxes and behave yourself and we'll look after you. Until we don't.

So what's the solution to a failing SS system? Well a good ol private retirement account of course, an IRA or a 401k or a whatever. Where is that money kept? In the overinflated stock market of course. Overseen by a greedy government and controlled by faceless men in suits that collude behind the scenes as all men of big finance do. Just think about that for a minute. Who proclaims this as the way to a secure financial future? Why everyone of course, absolutely Everyone! And absolutely Everyone keeps their life savings in these "Digital" accounts. All you're future food and electricity payments and even new cars are in a hard-drive somewhere represented as electronic code. What could go wrong with that?

It all boils down to TRUST. Everyone Trusts... The Government, to make sure these promises are kept. But in reality these promises are outside of government control. Government can't control the stock market, they have no control over bank collapses, Something as simple as a solar flare of great magnitude could wipe out the entire grid, along with your life savings. An outlier event of course, it's much more likely to be stolen through a market collapse, high inflation, or a government bail-in.

It's something to think about as we move into this era of scarcity and collapse. Just don't think about it too long before making a decision. Personally I like Gold and Silver as a hedge against this future wealth destruction. After all it has a few points in its favor. It's never failed in thousands of years to protect life savings. It's increasingly being stockpiled by the central banks of most world governments (there is a big hint) It is highly liquid, and it's something I can control myself if I so choose. I have no control over the cash in my bank account and even less over the money in my superannuation account.

Having personal control though is an old fashioned concept that has been lost in this era of self-driving cars, fast food and investment advisors. Most people take it for granted that it's wise to have other people manage the important aspects of their life. Trusting people they don't even know in most cases. What is this but the behavior of Sheep? All happily grazing in a field beside the still waters. They go where the Shepard leads them without a care in the world, even up the ramp into the slaughterhouse.
We're 17 years past the peak now and the 3rd World is going hungry and dark. We'll be next, we're well on the way in fact.
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Re: Pensions and Unemployment Benefits

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 26 Jun 2024, 10:51:55

The situation is better in Canada than the US. The largest source of government managed pension income is that Canada Pension Plan. As with Social Security, workers contribute a percentage of their earnings to CPP. The difference is that CPP funds are mandated to be invested to get the best rate of return. It wasn't always that way -- when CPP was first created the surplus funds were simply loaned out at low interest rates.

Unfortunately there has been less success at reforming Old Age Security. A proposal to base OAS payments on combined family income was withdrawn because it was politically unpopular. The last Conservative government we had put in place a gradual increase in the age at which OAS could be received to account for the fact that people are living longer on average. Once the Liberal's were reelected they cancelled that. The result is that OAS payments, paid out of Federal government tax revenue, are consuming an ever increasing share of the Federal budget as large numbers of baby boomers hit retirement age.
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