[Carlhole]

I guess this subject requires a lot of study to see what the arguments really are in detail. But here's a question:

If the constitution prohibits direct taxes, isn't that an income tax? And how is that construed to mean something about capitation and a particular states' population?

Definition: Direct Tax - A tax levied on capital and sources of income over which the taxpayer has no discretion.

I assume this means that a consumer can avoid a tobacco tax, for example, by not purchasing any tobacco, therefore exercising discretion. However, if one earns $70,000/year, then that is something that is non-discretionary. And that's what the framers wanted to avoid.

[firestarter]

This tells one all they need to know about Mr. Legal Positivist:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he purpose of this FAQ is to provide concise, authoritative rebuttals to nonsense about the U.S. tax system that is frequently posted in misc.taxes, and on web sites scattered throughout the Internet, by a variety of fanatics, idiots, and dupes, frequently referred to by the courts as "tax protesters".

[KhanCEO]

Constitution of the United States

Section. 8.

Clause 5:

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

-The Federal Reserve System is illegal-

Section 9:

Clause 4:

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.7

-Income Tax is a direct unproportion tax.-

Amendment I.2

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
_______________________________
On August 31, 2005 federal judge Emmet Sullivan ruled the government does not have to answer the American people's
questions, even though it is guaranteed in the First Amendment.
(When asked about Income Tax Laws)

There is no law requiring you to fill out a 1040, read the IRS code. The IRS can't show you the law because it doesn't exsist.

Read the god damn constitution that set you free. Jesus Christ people this man (Aaron Russo) is telling you that you are being screwed and what do you do????? you say he is fill of crap for telling you the truth. Why do you think he would go through the trouble of making a video like this? Property Taxes pay for roads, schools, police, firemen, etc. Income Tax goes to the interest of the debt.

16th Amendment was not ratified by the required 3/4 of the states, but nevertheless Secretary of State Philander Knox fraudulently announced ratification.

Check out what these people had to say about the money changers.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and voilent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."
James Madison-

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation , then by deflation, the banks and the corporations which grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
Thomas Jefferson-

This is what we are seeing right now!

"The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers.
The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government but it is the government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles the tax payers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity"
Abraham Lincoln-

"The money power preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monoarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureacracy."
Abraham Lincoln-

"The hands that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without deceny: their sole object is gain."
Napolean-

"The rich will strive to establish their dominion and enslave the rest. They always did. They always will they will have the same effect here as elsewhere, if we do not, by (the power of) government , keep them in their proper spheres."
Gouvernor Morris-

"We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled in the civilized world- no longer a government by a vote of the majority but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
Woodrow Wilson-The man that didn't veto the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

"In the United States today we have in effect two governments. We have the duly constituted Government. Then we have an independent , uncontrolled and uncoordinated government in the federal reserve system, operating the money powers which are reserved to congress by the constitution."
Rep. Wright Patman (D-TX)

"The finanical system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That board administers the finance system by autthority of a purely profiteering group. The system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money."
Rep. Charlies A Lindberg (R-MN)

"We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it."
Rep. Louis T. McFadden (R-PA)

"These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of newspapers and columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of public office officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government."
Theodore Roosevelt-

"The warning of Theodore Roosevelt has much timeliness today, for the real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state, and nation It seizes in its long and powerful tentacles our executive officers, our legislative bodies , our school, our courts, our newspapers, and every agency created for the public protection. To depart from mere generalizations let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interest and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes.
They practically control both parties write political platforms, make catspaws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business. These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of newspapers and magazines in this country."
John Hylan, Mayor of New York- New York Times, March 26, 1922

"It was not accidental. It was a carefully contrived occurrence. The international bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair here so that they might emerge as rules of us all."
Rep. Louis T. McFadden (D-PA)

""After WW1, Germany fell into the hands of the German international bankers. Those bankers brough her and they now own her , lock , stock, and barrel. They have purchased her industries, they have mortages on her soil , they control her production, they control all her public utilities. The international German bankers have subsidized the present Government of Germany and they have also supplied every dollar of the money Adolph Hilter has used in his lavish campaign to build up a threat to the government of Bruening. When Bruening fails to obey the orders of the German International Bankers, Hitler is brought forth to scare the Germans into submission. Through the Federal Reserve Board over $30 billions of American money has been pumped into Germany. You have all heard of the spending that has taken place in Germany. Modernistic dwellings , her great planetariums her gymnasiums, her swimming pools, her fine public highways, her pefect factories. All this was done on our money. All this was given to Germany through the Federal Reserve Board. The Federal Reserve Board has pumped so many billions of dollars into Germany that they dare not name the total."
Rep. Louis McFadden (D-PA)


And of course watch the movie, in full before you make a post.

[firestarter]

BTW, the Constitution of the United States, subsequent to the Civil War, is a wax nose that has been interpreted to say just about anything activists of both stripes, liberal or conservative, wish for it to say, although liberals have perfected the shibboleths of late. Those who practice slavish obedience to the state and its masters (your lords, if you will) LOVE what it's morphed in to. I, for one, wouldn't attempt to make a spirited defense of confiscatory tax policy using an ever changing ( organic) document as my ace in the hole. Mr. Tax System LOVING website fella is no more compelling than a flacid penis on the set of a prono flick, although he might have a redeeming quality in that genre as he does come off as a bit anal. In a way he kind of reminds me of the religiously inclined who constantly cite the biblical injunction of giving unto Caesar what is rightfully his, thereby justfying the existentence of the omnipotent state, while at the same time falling blind to the prospect that perhaps nothing belongs to Caesar, period. I'm an occupier in the latter philosophical camp, however, I might compromise and consider pinning for the old feudal lords and their 30% tribute reqiurement. Until then, though, I'll do as little as possible while making up for my own economic shortfalls living off the production and confiscated wealth of the led by the nose, American sheeple.

[Carlhole]

I definitely agree that the creation and management of money should be under the purview of the people. That is, it should be a government function, not private.

I also agree with those who want us to have REAL money. Perhaps backed by gold or perhaps something else. For example, one of J. Paul Getty's rich sons wanted to have a dollar backed by stock (I suppose it would essentially be a share of a huge mutual fund). That way, the dollar would be linked to productivity - strong when productivity is strong weak when P is weak. Perfect. The technicals of that might be difficult.

And I really wish the Constitution were not treated like a vague or ambiguous document. I don't think the original framers of the Constitution agreed with the idea of an Income Tax - that was what they meant by the term "Direct Tax".

These days, I'd be in favor of abolishing the Income Tax but I'd also be in favor of establishing a gasoline tax with certain exceptions or relief for the poor. There was an thread on The Oil Drum about it just yesterday.

Let's Talk Gas Tax (Poll) Monday
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/18/12529/1219

[AlCzervik]

Bump. It's back up on there for good, I guess.

Sorry, tinyurl is down, so here is the long link.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... long&hl=en

[mattduke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') definitely agree that the creation and management of money should be under the purview of the people. That is, it should be a government function, not private.

[Carlhole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') definitely agree that the creation and management of money should be under the purview of the people. That is, it should be a government function, not private.

[NEOPO]

Many of us never think twice about our rights until they slap the cuffs on us while reminding us of them

America Freedom to Fascism Authorized version

"awesome"
I ddnt say that - its a quote!!

[greenworm]

Check this out:

v

On the one hand you have prison camps around the US just waiting for some visitors and on the other hand you have a bunch tax protestors in "V" outfits. This is our strange world.

[NugBlazer]

http://www.freedomtofascism.com/ I saw this movie recently and thought it did a very good job of blowing the doors off of the whole Federal Reserve debacle.

I truly think that the issue of the Federal Reserve is as important as Peak Oil or Global Warming. In fact, it may be even more important than either of those. The Federal Reserve is one of the worst things ever to happen to America! This film will conclusively show you why.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NugBlazer', 'h')ttp://www.freedomtofascism.com/

I saw this movie recently and thought it did a very good job of blowing the doors off of the whole Federal Reserve debacle.

I truly think that the issue of the Federal Reserve is as important as Peak Oil or Global Warming. In fact, it may be even more important than either of those.

The Federal Reserve is one of the worst things ever to happen to America! This film will conclusively show you why.

[NEOPO]

Stop it Matt. As if there is only two ways to anything...Pffft.
Thats the big lie and you just tried to use it.
Red and blue, black or white, problem solution...
or my personal favorite "it failed once so it will fail again" as if the initial try wasnt designed for failure or with not enough safegaurds to prevent failure.

Its an excellent Movie and its all true.
We have a problem yet sadly we have many problems and the last person that tried to fix this one was assassinated.

This film reveals a very real problem that most people dont even comprehend so if that was the goal then mission accomplished.

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'S')top it Matt. As if there is only two ways to anything...Pffft.
Thats the big lie and you just tried to use it.
Red and blue, black or white, problem solution...
or my personal favorite "it failed once so it will fail again" as if the initial try wasnt designed for failure or with not enough safegaurds to prevent failure.

Its an excellent Movie and its all true.
We have a problem yet sadly we have many problems and the last person that tried to fix this one was assassinated.

This film reveals a very real problem that most people dont even comprehend so if that was the goal then mission accomplished.

[waegari]

I've watched the trailer.

The general argument seems to hinge on equalizing 'carrying an ID card' with Nazi Germany.
But what if they would have chosen a comparison with Belgium, where carrying an ID card has been compulsory for ages, while still being the country where tax evasion is some sort of a national hobby?

[Micki]

Waegari. Just watch the movie.
It is on google video for free and it covers a heck of a lot mkore than just the id card. Some of it very disturbing.

[waegari]

I'm not disputing facts. I'm simply not very fond of the slick rethorics. The leading the witness like street interviews, just to mention one more example.

Let alone this one. As Article I, section 8 of the US Constitution speaks of

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ection 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

[waegari]

I found an interesting story from Wired about Katherine Albrecht, who's the one in the movie with the spy implant story.

It's here.

It turns out that she's a Born Again Christian, who takes such possibility for the Mark of the Beast. So actually, she's probably quite happy about it, as it betokens the Second Coming.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lbrecht is already reaching at least a few of her fellow Christians, through videos produced by Endtime Ministries, that link RFID to the Book of Revelation.

"The Mark of the Beast, 666: a prophesy from 2000 years ago," says Albrecht, at the beginning of her video, On the Brink of the Mark, produced two years ago. "How many people (know that) technological developments of the last 10 to 20 years could be combining to make the Mark of the Beast a reality, and possibly even in our lifetimes?"

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('waegari', 'I') don't see how it can be unconstitutional to impose income tax to pay off the national debt. I think it's highly sensationalist to state anything to the contrary in a trailer.

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
')The federal income tax doesn't pay off the national debt. It only pays toward the interest portion of it and never more. The debt can never entirely be paid off under the current monetary system because to do so would eliminate all US dollars in circulation and devistate the economy!