[Zentric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'S')o, what I'm saying, as shown by what Jaws is saying, is that Economics is a religion, practiced by robots, who are unable to hone in on a point, and who blame others for their screw ups, yet will always gladly cash their paychecks and collect their pensions.

[Zentric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'S')o, what I'm saying, as shown by what Jaws is saying, is that Economics is a religion, practiced by robots, who are unable to hone in on a point, and who blame others for their screw ups, yet will always gladly cash their paychecks and collect their pensions.

[rogerhb]

My definition of an economist is "someone who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing".

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'W')ell, which is it? Based on the above, is economics a science or a religion? Are its "laws" presentable in terms of mathematics symbols (like a science), or in fuzzy-human terms (like a religion)? Or is economics -you know, the good 19th-century version that Jaws spoke of- just a voodoo-science after all?

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'M')y definition of an economist is "someone who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing".

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'M')y definition of an economist is "someone who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing".

[Zentric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'W')ell, which is it? Based on the above, is economics a science or a religion? Are its "laws" presentable in terms of mathematics symbols (like a science), or in fuzzy-human terms (like a religion)? Or is economics -you know, the good 19th-century version that Jaws spoke of- just a voodoo-science after all?

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '1'). Asking what is the state of the economy is irrelevent to the real world.

2. Asking if last years GDP is better than the previous is impossible, all you can do is tell the difference.

3. Its pointless asking economist an opinion on what would be a good policy to follow for the benefit of a country, because they can't put a price on it.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'Y')our arguments are ridiculous. Someone out there has programmed you to use words like math, science, logic and truth, but did not take the time to teach you how to use these words correctly. If your argument is that economics has been bastardized, then point taken. On the other hand, if you claim that true economics flows from immutable laws or "a priori" truths, as you say, then you are so far from making a convincing argument, it's tragic.

Please, turn us on to the pure, pristine and inviolate economic laws that will mend our souls and heal the world.

Otherwise, do you have an "off" switch?

[Zentric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'Y')our arguments are ridiculous. Someone out there has programmed you to use words like math, science, logic and truth, but did not take the time to teach you how to use these words correctly. If your argument is that economics has been bastardized, then point taken. On the other hand, if you claim that true economics flows from immutable laws or "a priori" truths, as you say, then you are so far from making a convincing argument, it's tragic.

Please, turn us on to the pure, pristine and inviolate economic laws that will mend our souls and heal the world.

Otherwise, do you have an "off" switch?

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'J')aws, what I'm trying to say is that you are dogmatic, robotic and, your explanations are dense and rarely make sense.

[MrBill]

Green Paper on European Energy Security

The problem is not economics and that economists do not know what to do, but that a) they are being asked to solve several problems simulataneously, and b) no one like the taste of their medicine.

A few examples.

Whereas the Japanese have realized since the first oil shocks in the 1970's that their economy is totally exposed to higher energy prices and surity of supply the U.S. has yet to comprehend this in their policies despite rhetoric coming from the President which is too little, too late. The Japanese use 2/3rds the G7 average energy input per unit of output. They have focussed on both the supply and demand sides of the equation by diversifying suppliers of energy, sources of energy and reducing demand.

The US on the otherhand, refuses to acklowedge the need to save energy, so they have (almost) (publicy) ignored the demand side of the equation and focussed (almost) soley on the supply side. Finding and developing new sources of traditional oil & gas as evidenced by the last Energy Budget, which was long on tax breaks for oil companies and short on new initiatives for alternative energy or conservation. As a matter of fact subsidies for energy saving investments have been reduced.

Classic economics calls for higher prices when supply exceeds demand. No one wants to listen to that advice. The only way to curb demand is to raise prices. Tax consumption. Use that revenue to invest in alternatives like public transport. Do not use those taxes to fund road building. Tax vehicles by weight and engine size. Implement road pricing which reflect actual use. Do not punish the worker who buys a more expensive, smaller apartment closer to their work, so that they can use public transportation, and then use their taxes so some selfish idiot can live 30-miles for his job and commute to work everyday in his own auto made possible by taxes to build freeways.

People deride economists because they do not want higher taxes to pay for public spending, so they blame economists when they spend too much and then find they are in trouble and reducing spending and increasing saving would mean a) a reduced standard of living, and b) a recesssion. Once again, economists are being asked to solve two problems at the sametime. If you prefer lower taxes then insist on less government spending. Oh, I know, I have no idea.

If you want to slow the economy and therefore reduce consumption and balance your trade deficit, you need restrictive monetary policies. That means higher interest rates to choke consumption. The medicine is bitter. No one wants it. You may as well blame the doctor who prescribes chemotherapy as being hopelessly out of touch with reality, as we know chemotherapy has side effects and can make your hair fallout, and it has in any case less than a 100% chance of success of saving the patient.

So you consume and consume and over spend to fund your consumption at unsustainable levels and then you look around for someone to blame. I think part of the problem, aside from intellectual laziness, is that you're simply too wealthy and the laws of economics are therefore blunted for you. In otherwords you can afford to be uneconomical. I did the poor a disservice by implying they did not understand economics. I think I was mistaken. I think when you have no wealth cushion you know very well about the basics of economics because their supply of labor is the only thing that keeps food on their table.

And yet another day goes by and we are no closer to alleviating the economic pain of the transition to post-peak oil because we have spend so much time just covering the basics, but we can always blame that on a) the government, b) big business, c) the banks, d) economists, and e) the other guy.

[Zentric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'J')aws, what I'm trying to say is that you are dogmatic, robotic and, your explanations are dense and rarely make sense.

[rogerhb]

Thanks MrBill.

That list of scapegoats just keeps getting bigger.....

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'N')ot knowing about the Bond angle, do you think I now face an untimely debt?

[Liamj]

I found Mr Bill & Jaws modestly convincing in their defence of economics, but still think no claim to hard science can be made. Which doesn't mean its a religion, they'd need to borrow a trick from the catholics (colour) first. That its not a hard science is no slur, neither are humour or systems ecology and we'd be completely sunk without them.

Assuming econ. is the sorely misused and ignored seer that aforementioned argue, then i think its time economists went on strike in defence of their reputations. Pull no more levels in the service of Voldemort! Standing in the trough whilst muttering 'but this isn't how its supposed to work' lacks credibility.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'I') found Mr Bill & Jaws modestly convincing in their defence of economics, but still think no claim to hard science can be made. Which doesn't mean its a religion, they'd need to borrow a trick from the catholics (colour) first. That its not a hard science is no slur, neither are humour or systems ecology and we'd be completely sunk without them.

Assuming econ. is the sorely misused and ignored seer that aforementioned argue, then i think its time economists went on strike in defence of their reputations. Pull no more levels in the service of Voldemort! Standing in the trough whilst muttering 'but this isn't how its supposed to work' lacks credibility.

[Liamj]

That is another option of course, but then don't be surprised when a mob comes knocking, wishing to renegotiate your social contract.

If economics were a religion, the Carlyle Group would be its (slick & well-spun) satanic mass.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le3995.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group#Controversy

Is war profiteering a market failure or just capitalism inevitably feeding off stupidity?

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'I')s war profiteering a market failure or just capitalism inevitably feeding off stupidity?

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'I')s war profiteering a market failure or just capitalism inevitably feeding off stupidity?