[drew]

I am conflicted. The one major flaw of capitalism is ethical in nature. That being said, I am supportive of the system due to the fact that no other economic system has allowed people to live in such a place as today's world. And I don't mean rich and poor. At one point almost all people were poor, with very few filthy rich individuals thrown in. Needless to say there is a huge middle class world wide that would not exist without capatilsim.

That being said, my issue with the system is entirely ethical; the guys, and women, running corporations, (and governments), often have a very poorly developed sense of right and wrong. Unfortunately, as long as the entity is returning value to the shareholders, nothing is said about conducting business in a less than benevolent manner. Coke deals with Burma; Rubber Machinery Shop (spun off of Uniroyal) refuses to settle with strikers and sets up shop in China; Shell supports the Nigerian government; etc.,

These are relatively gross misdeeds in my opinion, but even my employer is guilty. Management often fails to understand causality in the simplest terms, being far more concerned with profitabilty and control than ethics. The other day I visited the Ministry of Labour to find out my rights with respect to a work refusal I was planning on committing. My occupation (truck driver) has liabilities in the public domain that most occupations don't. I can be charged, (even criminally), fined, prosecuted, and sued for errors of conduct in my duties, by the government and the public at large.

That being said, I have been demanding for several months that my employer fix the anti-lock braking systems on many of the trailers I haul. I found myself sliding sideways down three lanes of traffic in an icestorm because the anti-lock failed to activate. Luckily no one was beside me. I almost slid right through an intersection on a red, with the air horn blaring!While technically having these not functional is not a Hiway Traffic Act violation, I can see quite easily the potential for a civil lawsuit if I were to lose control trying to stop and took out some poor unfortunate. All it would take is for a lawyer to examine the daily inspection book and note that I chose to drive the vehicle with a defect.

My employer somehow fails to see my point, nor are they concerned with the moral reponsibilty to the motoring public. Is this being a good corporate citizen? It took my threat of a work refusal to smarten them up; fortunately for myself, labour law states that all saftey equipment, optional or not, shall be in working order at all times.

Why are corportations so quick to dump risk uopn others by cutting corners, or so easily swayed by potential profits that they are often caught in bed with the devil? A lack of moral behavior that is top down in nature seems to be tha root cause IMHO.

That being said, I don't feel bad profiting from my stock trading, as I am merely taking some other investor's money, but do believe that dividends paid by the likes of Shell are tainted by violence and are thus blood money.

Conflicted? You bet!

Drew

[MrBill]

Drew, most of us have conflicts, only simpletons see everything in black & white. Needless to say, they re not the ones making decisions and influencing policy. There is by nature a trade-off otherwise it would be easy ' to do the right thing' ?

In any case, keep your log book, keep your correspondance with your firm. In case of an accident, the lawyers and the insurance cos. will go after the firm not the truck driver. And as an employee the firm is in any case liable for your conduct on the road. Even if they can prove that you did not follow procedures. However, your decision to pursue the issue reflects well on your good judgement.

[drew]

Thanks for the props Mrbill. People were being unduly harsh, no doubt.

Back to the topic at hand; economics is certainly a science, albeit an inexact one. However for very many it is a religion. My old man was a broker, and an optimist as well, which seems to be the prevailing public face of the corporate world, especially in the consumer market for investments.

Whether this public face is true or not is significant since the amateur investment community does indeed adopt the advestising and culture as a religion. I think people want to believe that the good-times will happen for them as well (like lotto 649), due to all the ads showning youthful 50 somethings on their yacths, or in Tuscany on vacation. Most don't want to be involved in serious decision making and instead take whatever is doled out by their broker or investment advisor like a wafer and wine at communion.

People who think economics is a religion should try reading more, as the principles followed by the business community are somewhat universal. I am completely a neophyte to this world, yet this was evident to me a year back or more. What works, works. I am reading a Buffettology book this weekend and although I am much more of a speculator than he is, the priciples espoused in the book are the same for me as they are for Warren Buffett.

Question for you, Mrbill; do you think Buffett's buy and hold strategy will work for anything other than commodities in the coming years?

Drew

[MrBill]

Drew wrtoe:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uestion for you, Mrbill; do you think Buffett's buy and hold strategy will work for anything other than commodities in the coming years?

[rogerhb]

Noam Chomsky on the Hopeful Signs Across Latin America

In a similar vein to Confessions of an Economic Hit-Man...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chomsky', 'T')he ideological issue that you rightly bring up is the impact of neoliberalism. It's pretty striking over the last twenty-five years, overwhelmingly it's true, that the countries that have adhered to the neo-liberal rules have had an economic catastrophe and the countries that didn't pay any intention to the rules grew and developed. East Asia developed rapidly pretty much by totally ignoring the rules. Chile is claimed as being a market economy but that's highly misleading: its main export is a very efficient state owned copper company nationalized under Allende. You don't get correlations like this in economics very often. Adherence to the neoliberal rules has been associated with economic failure and violation of them with economic success: it's very hard to miss that. Maybe some economists can miss it but people don't: they live it.

Yes, there is an uprising against it. Cuba is a symbol. Venezuela is another, Argentina, where they recovered from the IMF catastrophe by violating the rules and sharply violating them, and then throwing out the IMF. Well, this is the ideological issue. The IMF is just a name for the economic weapon of domination, which is eroding.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', 'Q')uestion for you, Mrbill; do you think Buffett's buy and hold strategy will work for anything other than commodities in the coming years?

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '[')url=http://www.counterpunch.org/]Noam Chomsky on the Hopeful Signs Across Latin America[/url]

In a similar vein to Confessions of an Economic Hit-Man...

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I')f Cuba is hopeful, I don't want to know what despair is.

[drew]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I') remember reading Marc Faber once pointing out that the most profitable portfolio one could have had over the past 50 years would have only conducted about 5 transactions. Buy Dow Jones in the 50s-early 60s, buy gold and commodities in the early 70's, buy Nikkei and bonds in the early 80's, buy Dow Jones in the early 90's, and buy gold and commodities in 2000.

Buy and hold works. You just have to know what to hold.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I') remember reading Marc Faber once pointing out that the most profitable portfolio one could have had over the past 50 years would have only conducted about 5 transactions. Buy Dow Jones in the 50s-early 60s, buy gold and commodities in the early 70's, buy Nikkei and bonds in the early 80's, buy Dow Jones in the early 90's, and buy gold and commodities in 2000.

Buy and hold works. You just have to know what to hold.

[shakespear1]

If you find Buffett amazing check out the two stocks mentioned in the following and wonder why we are not in them

$this->bbcode_second_pass_code('', 'Like Buffett, only better
advertisement
Berkshire Hathaway's earnings tumbled 29% in 2005, excluding an accounting gain. So why follow Buffett? Here are two companies that play the same game but get better returns.

By Jon D. Markman

Oh, lords of the market, let this be the last straw. The last paean from the pious. The last time we must see simpering reporters, Rotarians and retirees blow kisses to a man once celebrated as the Oracle of Omaha but now best described as the Natterer of Nebraska.')

Buffett like ...

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shakespear1', 'I')f you find Buffett amazing check out the two stocks mentioned in the following and wonder why we are not in them

$this->bbcode_second_pass_code('', 'Like Buffett, only better
advertisement
Berkshire Hathaway's earnings tumbled 29% in 2005, excluding an accounting gain. So why follow Buffett? Here are two companies that play the same game but get better returns.

By Jon D. Markman

Oh, lords of the market, let this be the last straw. The last paean from the pious. The last time we must see simpering reporters, Rotarians and retirees blow kisses to a man once celebrated as the Oracle of Omaha but now best described as the Natterer of Nebraska.')


Regardless, I still like Buffet's Wasting Away in Margeritaville. Great song.

Buffett like ...

[drew]

That's some unflattering light!

Somebody better get out the polish quick.

Goes to so you how little I know!

sigh...

Drew

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', 'T')hat's some unflattering light!

Somebody better get out the polish quick.

Goes to so you how little I know!

sigh...

Drew

[Odin]

There is nothing bad about economics. It's ideologes (*cough* Neo-Liberals *cough) who twist the numbers to agree with thier ideology. What I find disturbing is how right-wingers treat Capitalism and Free Market as synonyms. In reality, capitalism and the market are at odds with each other, the market is a pro-consumer entity while the capitalist system is pro-investor. It is anti-trust laws and other forms of regulation that keeps the two functioning together. A truely lassez-faire system is self distructive because without regulations there is nothing stopping all the capitalists joining togeth becoming one huge monopolisitic cartel-government that would create a quasi-command economy designed to maximize shareholder profits at the expense of consumers and Labor. This is why Globalization is so dangerous, it caused a race to the bottom that weakens the power of the state over the economy, creating a shift the balance of power away from the consumer and Labor to Capital, weakening democracy and strenghthening plutocracy.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Odin', 'A') truely lassez-faire system is self distructive because without regulations there is nothing stopping all the capitalists joining togeth becoming one huge monopolisitic cartel-government that would create a quasi-command economy designed to maximize shareholder profits at the expense of consumers and Labor.

[rogerhb]

Being the devil's advocate, even with a monopoly there is always a market because there is always the choice of not buying.

There is always vendor who has a free product that does nothing and has zero value and infinite supply of the good.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne big cartel ruling the world economy would have the same problem that plagues the socialist economy: it would have no idea what the value of any of its capital goods are. It takes a market to establish this value. Thus if all the companies of the world merged into one big company it would become immediately unable to run itself and fail in its operations. Competitors would appear that would drive it out of business.

[drew]

Thanks for the kind comments the other day, MrBill. Just in case you didn't know I want to get away from the trucker lifestyle (yes there is one), not embrace it more fully by becoming a broker. I have been behind the wheel now 16 years, that's about a decade too much, imho. Why did you think I was playing the market so feverishly for anyways....

As to today's discussion I think state control of markets to a certain degree is necessary to keep capitalism in check. I still believe Keynes was a good influence; the problem was, of course, not paying down debt in the good times to counteract deficit spending by govs during bad.

The asian tigers are examples too where state influnece was a positive thing.

Drew

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', 'T')hanks for the kind comments the other day, MrBill. Just in case you didn't know I want to get away from the trucker lifestyle (yes there is one), not embrace it more fully by becoming a broker. I have been behind the wheel now 16 years, that's about a decade too much, imho. Why did you think I was playing the market so feverishly for anyways....

As to today's discussion I think state control of markets to a certain degree is necessary to keep capitalism in check. I still believe Keynes was a good influence; the problem was, of course, not paying down debt in the good times to counteract deficit spending by govs during bad.

The asian tigers are examples too where state influnece was a positive thing.

Drew