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Page added on June 20, 2018
How $6 Trillion of Fossil Fuel Investments Got Dumped Thanks to Green Campaigners
It has become one of the fastest growing political campaigns in human history, surpassing similar battles against the tobacco industry and the fight against apartheid in South Africa. Its logic is simple: the only way to avoid climate change and dangerous levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere is for most fossil fuel reserves to stay in the ground.
Campaigners launched the fossil fuel divestment campaign in the early 2010s. Their argument was that you curb consumption of fossil fuels if you stop investing in the companies involved in extracting and burning them. Create a significant enough stigma, they argued, and this issue will shoot up the political agenda.
In the past five years or so, investment funds, public institutions and individuals have duly divested around US$6.15 trillion (£4.6 trillion) of fossil fuel assets. It has helped that the campaign attracted a number of prestigious institutions early on, including the British Medical Association, University College London, University of California, the Church of England and the World Council of Churches (representing more than a half billion Christians globally).
The campaign gained further traction after a London-based think tank argued that fossil fuels were in any case a bad investment because the true costs of environmental damage had not been priced in and that at some point there would be a severe correction.
The battle is far from over, however, as demonstrated by the recent decision of the Church of Scotland not to divest. One of the cornerstones of European faith, whose teachings have helped shape everyone from Robert Burns to Rupert Murdoch, its annual general assembly held an impassioned two-hour debate on whether to remove oil and gas stocks from its £443m investment fund.
The high road
The Church of Scotland has form in this regard: it had already divested its coal and tar sands investments two years earlier. Ahead of the latest debate, its official general assembly report summarised the issue as follows:
It is deeply uncomfortable for the Church, as a caring organisation concerned about climate justice, to continue to invest in something which causes the very harm it seeks to alleviate.
While we have profited from oil and gas exploration in the past, we now understand that financing the future exploration and production will take us away from fulfilling the Paris Agreement and delay the transition to a low carbon economy.
Church of Scotland general assembly. Rowan Gard
Yet the approximately 1,000 commissioners attending the General Assembly Hall on the city’s Mound, next to Edinburgh Castle, narrowly disagreed: 47% in favour and 53% against. Coming from a nation which already gets most of its electricity from renewable sources, and whose government has indicated the end is in sight for fossil fuel vehicles on the roads, it was undeniably a disappointment.
Representatives were persuaded that it was better to stay invested and seek to influence better behaviour than to pull out altogether. Reverend Jenny Adams, who had brought the motion in the first place, argued that all the evidence suggests oil and gas companies have little intention of changing quickly enough to satisfy the Paris agreement. She said:
There is a need for climate emissions to peak by 2020 and if we just keep talking, too much time passes and change is not coming fast enough.
She is surely right about this. There may be traditional wisdom in engaging with fellow shareholders and board members on matters pertaining to large companies, but the church’s decision looks naïve in relation to this sector.
To give just one example, consider that approximately 94% of shareholders of the oil giant Royal Dutch Shell voted last year and again this year to reject emission targets that would comply with the Paris climate accord, as it was deemed “not in the best interest of the company”. How do you persuade a bloc like that to change its mind?
Amen corner
While the Church of Scotland’s decision to sidestep divestment may have been a setback to the movement, there have been recent successes, too. The Church of Ireland committed to divest its fossil fuel assets earlier in May, while an international coalition of Catholic institutions, including the Scottish Catholic International Aid Fund, pledged in April to divest investments totalling £6.6 billion.
The movement speaks. Rowan Gard
Municipal administrations including New York and Paris are also divesting from fossil fuels and shifting their investments towards renewable energy sources – evidence that the global divestment is making an impact on public policy.
This certainly seems prudent, as newly published research suggests that the “carbon bubble” could “burst” in the next two decades as demand for fossil fuel energy falls despite population increases and burgeoning global economic growth.
The study projects that the global fossil energy demand will drop by as much as 40% by 2050. If that comes to fruition, it would mean containing global warming levels to 1.5 °C, which is the aspirational goal of the Paris climate accord.
That would be great news for environmentalists, most especially for those living on the front lines of climate change such as in the Pacific, less so for investors in fossil fuel businesses – Presbyterian or otherwise. It’s a strong signal that this global divestment movement may still be a long way from its peak.
173 Comments on "How $6 Trillion of Fossil Fuel Investments Got Dumped Thanks to Green Campaigners"
JuanP on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:04 pm
So some institutions sold $6 trillion of fossil fuel investments, which were purchased by other market players. How does this make any difference? Will this decrease at all the amount of fossil fuels we will end up extracting?
dave thompson on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:23 pm
The other big question is how do people live in modern society without FF? We can all protest our favorite latest cause such as that pesky pipe line going someplace or that latest refinery proposal. The bottom line is we all expect our lives to be normal in modern industrial civ. No FF no industrial civ. Lets all go live in a cave or tree of our convenience.
rockman on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:26 pm
Juan – Exactly. I may have missed some moves but all the so called divestments have been selling stock sales. IOW they were not investing in fossil fuel extraction projects but instead were investing in public companies doing fossil fuel extraction. None of the $trillions they toss about were being used to develop oil/NG production.
The only impact such divestments might have had was to temporarily lower some stock prices. Which would have only encouraged those looking to investment in the sector. For instance, those buying Chevron stock 2 years would have been very pleased with anyone’s efforts that might have put downward pressure on its price. That would have contributed to the 35% increase in those investments over the 2 years based on the most recent closing price.
Personally the Rockman is especially thankful as the slump in Chevron’s stock price allowed him to increase his holding. Beat the shit out of money market rates. LOL.
Outcast_Searcher on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:28 pm
Yep. Both Dave and Jaun are right. This is just political grandstanding unless something fundamental changes.
If so people are willing to invest in FF’s that the FF compnaies can’t raise critical capital, that would be an issue.
Given the size of the oil futures markets and the stock market investments in FF companies, there appears to be ZERO danger of that.
Or if big countries are willing to impose LARGE CO2 taxes to meaningfully disincent burning of FF’s, that would make some difference over time. Problem is, the vast majority of politicians and the FF burning people who elect them are dead set against that, once they understand such taxes would impact their standard of living.
So, marches or not, nothing meaningful is changing re global FF burning.
rockman on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:30 pm
dave – Exactly. The more interesting question would be how much fossil fuel consumption was reduced by those folks selling those stocks. I don’t see any of them bragging about big reductions in those stats.
dave thompson on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:38 pm
Rock, Yes my question I have raised at protests against FF is how did we all get to the protest? In my part of the world, gasoline. We all drove cars to protest the production of the stuff we used to get there. Yet when I brought this point up I became the bad guy that did not get it. The point I was making was ignored.
MASTERMIND on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:40 pm
Outcast
Actually
Wall Street Tells Frackers to Stop Counting Barrels, Start Making Profits
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wall-streets-fracking-frenzy-runs-dry-as-profits-fail-to-materialize-1512577420
You can’t fool investors forever! And next you open your fat fucking mouth..You might want to site some evidence…Wall Streets patience is running out..
Boat on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 2:51 pm
Mm
Good grief, they invested so much in US fracking they’re running out of pipelines, setting US records for production monthly and caused their biggest competitors to cut production because of a huge glut they created. Those Wall Street frackers have owned new market share. You need a new study by college kids.
Antius on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 3:06 pm
‘How $6 Trillion of Fossil Fuel Investments Got Dumped Thanks to Green Campaigners’
Let the bastards freeze in the dark. I wonder how much fossil fuel each of these morons uses in a single day? If you told them that couldn’t own cars, travel by plane, eat processed foods or live in a heated building, no doubt they would protest the injustice of it. Yet, that is exactly the future they are gunning for, not just for themselves but for everyone else.
These retards need to be sterilized. I have a lot of respect for genuine environmentalists. But to be Green implies a special kind of stupid; a thick headed, far-left, utopian extremism; an ideology that is against everything that actually works and is healthy and decent and champions all that is sick and perverse. The Green movement are part of the problem with Western societies.
baha on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 3:40 pm
You all commented on the divestment of oil stock. You’re right, it own’t make much difference. What’s a few bucks to the oil industry?
But if all these billions are being invested in Alt energy stock, that’s significant. That will fund the development of the next generation. Better, cleaner technology will win!
Antius on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 3:42 pm
‘Coming from a nation which already gets most of its electricity from renewable sources, and whose government has indicated the end is in sight for fossil fuel vehicles on the roads, it was undeniably a disappointment.’
Maybe the Church of Scotland understand the issues better than whoever wrote this article. Scotland does not generate most of its electricity from renewable sources. It is part of the UK grid. Wind turbines geographically located in Scotland produce the equivalent of about a third of power consumed within the borders of Scotland. But this ignores the fact that that power needs to be absorbed by the whole UK grid and that much power consumed within Scotland is provided by powerplants in England.
The idea that private transport is gojng to go non-fossil in the near future is a myth that has no basis in fact. There has been modest growth in hybrid vehicle numbers on UK roads, but pure electric cars remain a rare curiosity; the preserve of eccentric rich playboys.
The Scottish government, like the rest of UK government, live in a fantasy world that is divorced from reality.
baha on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 3:48 pm
And having the public on your side helps too.
Antius on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 3:50 pm
‘But if all these billions are being invested in Alt energy stock, that’s significant. That will fund the development of the next generation. Better, cleaner technology will win!’
That would only be true if alt-energy (a Green buzword for wind and solar) is basically capable of providing a comparable energy service at a comparable cost. But what if it isn’t? What if there are fundamental entropy problems that mean that it will never be capable of supporting affluent living standards, regardless of any amount of investment or R&D?
Davy on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 3:58 pm
Good comments Antius and something fake greens fail to understand and or admit. Renewables suffer from physics and economics limitations. The same is true of EV’s. Much can be done with these technologies. We read fantasy in the dreams parading as comments here daily.
Cloggie on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 4:17 pm
“Scotland does not generate most of its electricity from renewable sources… Wind turbines geographically located in Scotland produce the equivalent of about a third of power consumed within the borders of Scotland“
I do support your argument that Scotland uses England as a buffer. The Germans do the same with their neighbours.
But I can’t find confirmation for your 1/3 figure. Link?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/renewable-energy-electricity-wind-wave-scotland-climate-change-oil-gas-a8283166.html
http://www.scottishrenewables.com/sectors/renewables-in-numbers/
66-68%
Cloggie on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 4:22 pm
“Good comments Antius and something fake greens fail to understand and or admit. Renewables suffer from physics and economics limitations. The same is true of EV’s. Much can be done with these technologies. We read fantasy in the dreams parading as comments here daily.”
Davy has built his entire life centered around the collapse idea, and nobody is going to crush his worldview, oh nooo he won’t. Davy wants no stinkin renewables, because they would mean loss of face. Can’t have that, collapse it is going to be!
Davy on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 4:43 pm
“Davy has built his entire life centered around the collapse idea”
Wrong, I incorporated the collapse possibility idea into my entire life centered around getting closer to real green living. I walk the walk.
“ and nobody is going to crush his worldview”
Well, one thing is for sure the groupie gang isn’t.
“Davy wants no stinkin renewables, because they would mean loss of face.”
Wrong, I have invested more in renewables than you have. I am greener than you are by a long shot. Don’t forget I have animals in the field harvesting solar energy from pasture as well as panels.
“Can’t have that, collapse it is going to be!”
I think I have made it clear that I am less doomer now than 5 years ago when I first started commenting here. I do not see a happy ending but we are not on the cliffs edge just yet. World war is another story but energy and resources we still have some time. The economy is a wild card but it is likely a slow decline until the bottom falls out. I am much more open for some wiggle room these days.
Antius on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 4:49 pm
‘But I can’t find confirmation for your 1/3 figure. Link?’
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Business/TrendElectricity
The hydropower segment is long established, amongst the oldest UK power plants in fact. Its 5TWh per year is less than 2% of UK generation, but it looks significant as part of the much smaller Scottish generation chart.
Notice the big decline in gas and coal as an electricity fuel. That pretty much ensures that supply-demand can only be balanced by importing and exporting with the rest of the UK. That means gas turbines in England and Wales, powering up when output from wind turbines in Scotland is too low. And those turbines powering down when wind levels are high.
Talking about England or Scotland being relatively dependant on one form of energy or another, or Scotland to get half or a third of its power from wind is misleading, because the two areas don’t really exist as separate entities. Wind energy investment in the U.K. tends to focus on the North, partly because wind speeds are higher and also because population density is lower, making it easier to site turbines without objections.
Davy on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 4:54 pm
Antius , neder does this all the time with for example Denmark and Norway in which he fiddles with scaling to make one of his BIG agenda points.
Antius on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 5:17 pm
I think what Davy is trying to say Cloggie, is that we should say it as it is. Not simply pretend that it is something that it isn’t. Which is my position also. There is no point in advocating a certain set of technologies and pretending that they can work in ways that they really can’t.
The first step to solving our energy crisis, is to understand the problem; it’s timing and how it will impact us given the ways that we use energy. The second step is to understand the various technologies available on both the demand and supply side; their strengths, weaknesses, limitations, costs, power density, etc, and any other relevant technical details. The third step is to devise a practical plan.
Since our economy is a thermodynamic machine, its prosperity is a linear function of per capita energy use. The more costly that energy is, the lower the prosperity. I happen to like prosperity. I want more of it, not less. That means more and cheaper energy. Hence my general advocacy for things nuclear. It driven by a rather selfish enjoyment of all things warm, cosy, tasty and otherwise fun. More expensive energy means less of those things. A sudden reduction in energy availability would probably mean outright collapse. Hence my scepticism and hostility to blindly euphoric enthusiasm for exotic and ideologically appealing energy policies, with hazy technical details.
Boat on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 5:22 pm
In Texas there is less religion, ideology and emotion that goes into energy decisions. Pretty much the lowest cost btu producer wins. Green means the decade has ment more Nat gas and wind with coal plants shutting down. Solar is now starting to take off.
The limits of renewables are intermittent costs that also are now just beginning to be addressed. At 18 percent the need for storage has not been a big issue but will be in a few years.
The price per btu by energy source is bigger than emotion. If your energy source wins that war, you’ll be in the front pew.
twocats on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 5:27 pm
divestment doesn’t work in a world of almost unlimited liquidity and capital that is having an extremely hard time finding any significant return whatsoever.
the theory is sound – its just not realistic in the post-2008 environment.
politically these moves are smart as well – when the SHTF I don’t think it will be easy to convince people that these industries need a GM style bailout. Maybe we’ll just need to nationalize the energy sector top to bottom – kind of like utilities.
Duncan Idaho on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 5:28 pm
Hmm—
I see by the responses a cord was struck.
The rage does make its point——
MASTERMIND on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 5:28 pm
Boat
You were triggered so bad..with interest rates rising and 200 billion plus in debt..the fracking boom is about to go bust real soon..you stupid troll..
Hedge fund star David Einhorn calls fracking companies a joke
http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/04/investing/david-einhorn-oil-fracking-terrible-investment/index.html
How Wall Street Enabled the Fracking
‘Revolution’ That’s Losing Billions
“The U.S. shale oil industry hailed as a “revolution” has burned through a quarter trillion dollars more than it has brought in over the last decade. It has been a money-losing endeavor of epic proportions.”
https://www.desmogblog.com/2018/05/04/wall-street-shale-oil-fracking-revolution-losing-billions-continental-resources
MASTERMIND on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 5:30 pm
Finances of Fracking: Shale Industry Drills More Debt Than Profit
https://www.desmogblog.com/finances-fracking-shale-industry-drills-more-debt-profit
The Secret of the Great American Fracking Bubble
https://www.desmogblog.com/2018/04/18/finances-great-american-fracking-bubble
Boat when the fracking boom goes bust I hope you don’t end up like the fracking king Aubrey..Lobotomized into a bridge..
LMFAO!
Duncan Idaho on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 5:32 pm
Hint:
This sounds like a argument in 1905 about who our next Hapsburg rulers are going to be—-
Boat on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 6:27 pm
Mm
Do I give a shyt if oil makes money? If I remember correctly oils impact has shrunk to like 8% of GDP. The other 92% less mentioned parts of the economy got those low interest rates and revolving credit lines also. Your pervision to oil collaspe compared with military spending for example, Oil debt is very cheap.
Makati1 on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 6:58 pm
“I remember when America was a free country. You could get on an airliner without an ID. Driving licenses didn’t even have photos. If a friend was coming through your city on a flight and had a few hours layover, you could meet them inside the airport for lunch or dinner. You could meet friends, children, and relatives at the gate or see them off at the gate. Parents could actually put children on the plane and grandparents could take them off. …
I can remember when you could enter a Manhatten office building without having to show an ID, be looked up on a list, and cleared in, and when you could check in a hotel without an ID and paid your bill when you checked out, with cash if you preferred. The only evidence of your name was the one you gave when you checked in….
As kids we ran free. Heaven help a parent that permitted that today.
Oh, but times are more dangerous today we are told. What made today more dangerous? Failures in public policy. The government has made life more dangerous and less free….
Justice, the rule of law, these are in the way of the elites and have been discarded. The American people are so poorly educated and informed that they do not understand the consequences of the demise of the laws that once upheld the US Constitution….
https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/06/20/i-remember-when-america-was-a-free-country/#more-178475
Slip slidin’…
Boat on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 7:07 pm
Mak
The price you pay for keeping oil flowing for the world so countries like China don’t lose 50 million to famine like in the 50’s.
Oil changed the world. Thank the US since WWII for giving the world access to it. Thank the US for fighting the religious ideology that would take it away. Amen lol
MASTERMIND on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 7:14 pm
Madkat
Just because the airport is nonsense with security doesn’t mean you have no freedoms here..In your shithole country that don’t even allow woman to have abortions..You moron..
Makati1 on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 7:27 pm
MM, you have no clue about real freedom. You have lived in a state of prison lockdown all of your life. Like an animal born in a zoo. No concept of real freedom. None. You have never experienced it. Never will as long as you stay in the Us police state called America.
Makati1 on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 7:29 pm
Boat, are you too getting Davy delusional disease? Or are you just totally brainwashed? The world would function much better without the Us. And. the sooner FFs disappear the better for the whole planet.
Boat on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 8:07 pm
Mak
Don’t talk it, live it. Unplug and I’ll assume you will live at least a year. Meanwhile I’ll ac, Netflix and do sports. I love my home Depot tools and will build shyt till my end.
Makati1 on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 8:21 pm
Boat, I’m much more “unplugged” than you can ever be in the Us. The Ps uses 1/20th the oil that the Us uses. The Ps has several alternate energy sources like geothermal, wind, hydro, and solar, and is building even more. I am moving down the ladder while you perch on the teetering top. Who has the fartherest to fall? And the most pain when you go Splat? Not me.
You, on the other hand live in a precarious country and energy system where the huge debt load is soon going to kill most of it.
Makati1 on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 8:27 pm
BTW Boat. The farmhouse we are building will be totally independent of commercial energy and water/sewer. A gravity fed water system supplied by over 10 feet of rain annually and solar panels for electric. Also solar hot water. No cold weather to worry about heating. 70s to 80s daily. Charcoal made from the scrap wood gathered in the jungle for cooking. Food from a year round growing season. Clothing woven from local fibers. Fish from the local fishing port. Etc. Many Filipinos live quite good lives here without any commercial water, electric, phones, banks, etc. And they are happy. I doubt that you really are.
MASTERMIND on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 8:30 pm
Boat
Wait till the oil shortage hits soon and society collapses..and the lynch mobs take your home depot nail gun and shoot it through your fucking eye..good thing you like sports because you are going to need to run soon..That wal mart scooter won’t do you any good..
Anonymouse1 on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 8:43 pm
The only thing you watch boatretard, is the 700 club & Pat Robertson sermons. Ims sure your love your coloring books, your crayons, and those instant ramen noodles as well, but really, no one cares, retard.
DerHundistLos on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 9:29 pm
Many of you bitch, complain, and accuse others of grandstanding, yet, as in Rockman’s case, personal greed supersedes all other considerations while regarding others I ask this simple question: Since you seem able to differentiate a PR stunt from REAL action, please share with the audience what YOU have done to make a difference
Boat on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 9:34 pm
All three of ya are basically repeat cut and paste specialists. Tell me, does it get old to do the same shyt over and over. Try some mushrooms and develope some new links for those dried up brain cells. Show a little creativity, make your momma proud.
Boat on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 9:39 pm
DerHund
I don’t consort with aliens for one.
CommiesRus on Wed, 20th Jun 2018 11:03 pm
Mm please abort yourself it’s not too late. The only way you’ll get to meet your fuck buddy Satan. If you let nature take it’s course you’ll just float in complete darkness for eternity.
DerHundistLos on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 1:34 am
How does Boaturd spell B-I-N-G-O?
Answer: The only thing you watch boatretard, is the 700 club & Pat Robertson sermons. Ims sure your love your coloring books, your crayons, and those instant ramen noodles as well, but really, no one cares, retard.
DerHundistLos on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 1:43 am
By the way Boaturd, you would instantaneously elevate yourself if you dropped Patty R. and the 700 Club and instead focused ALL of your time and energy on the one and only voice of the Christian God,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJpalsj9sQ&t=421s
Cloggie on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 3:13 am
“Well, one thing is for sure the groupie gang isn’t.”
See? Nobody is going to change your collapse a priori.
“Wrong, I have invested more in renewables than you have. I am greener than you are by a long shot.”
I am 100% covered as regards to electricity. It is not just about investing in panels, but investing in extreme energy efficient gear as well. The fact that you consume more than I do doesn’t make you “greener” at all. Certainly not with your pickup truck.
But my point was not about your stupid insignificant panels, it is about your sabotaging efforts and talking down the possibility of the renewable energy transition, now in full swing in Europe, which you hate to see happening, as you are terrified by the idea that others are overtaking the seemingly invincible US, a relic of the past. You are all about defending the status quo of empire, with the US in the middle. The truth is that you are being outclassed by everybody else, especially Eurasia, which is not that surprising, given the fact that the US is rapidly turning into a third world country with ditto standards, or lack thereof. Now give me that Natzi routine again.lol
And deep in your heart you know that to be true, so the only face-saving way out for you is the idea of a global collapse, wiping out a large part of humanity.
But that resource-depleting induced collapse is not going to happen.
Currently in 2018 the only serious risk to the planetary status quo is the developing standoff in the US between “the left” and the “white right”. Or put differently: between the Deep State and European-America, that against all odds has hijacked the presidency.
The more I see of Trump, the more I get confirmed in the idea that he has not changed since November 2016 and he is serious in trying to defend the interests of white America, after decades of pampering “minorities” by the Beltway. Everything is pointing towards a stand-off in North-America by the end of Trump’s presidency, somewhere between later this year and 2024.
Cloggie on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 3:55 am
@Antius ‘But I can’t find confirmation for your 1/3 figure. Link?’
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Business/TrendElectricity
Aha, confusion between wind and renewables in general. OK.
But we seem to agree that Scotland harbors renewable energy production facilities that for ca. 66-68% match Scottish power consumption. In 2018. Add a few more wind farms and you are at 100% by 2020:
https://www.greenmatters.com/renewables/2017/11/08/Z2rjgAy/scotland-2020-solar
(with England volunteering to act as a buffer, continuously switching on and off their fossil fuel power stations, in accordance to EU law that says that renewable energy always has preference over fossil).
After 2020 Scotland can concentrate on storage, oh wait…
https://utilityweek.co.uk/developer-plans-trio-scottish-hydro-storage-projects/
…and gradually become independent from England as regards of energy (and perhaps on other terrains as well, like political independence).
You can safely assume that by 2025 these smart Scots will have achieved the energy transition, as far as electricity is concerned, for 100%. Next they should spend a decade or so adding more capacity to power heat pumps to heat their homes and power their vehicles, perhaps via these wicked Swedish “rail-in-the-road” system.
And Scotland will be fine afterwards and enjoy vastly reduced fossil fuel bills.
No need for nukes, no expensive military to ensure energy supply lines, no refineries, nu network of fuel stations that need to be serviced every day, no huge debt burdens, instead nice and green and prosperous and energy autark Scotland.
Antius on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 5:53 am
Cloggie wrote: “After 2020 Scotland can concentrate on storage, oh wait…
https://utilityweek.co.uk/developer-plans-trio-scottish-hydro-storage-projects/
…and gradually become independent from England as regards of energy (and perhaps on other terrains as well, like political independence).”
You still don’t understand how this works. A pumped storage station is essentially a whole extra power station, a power station that actually consumes electricity rather than produces it. Typically they have hours of storage capacity, not days or weeks. Storing days’ worth of power would require huge storage reservoirs, with comparably huge capital cost and environmental impact. In the real world, they are good at smoothing out small daily grid fluctuations that would otherwise require the use of diesel or open cycle gas turbine topping plants. They are essentially useless at storing the days or weeks of power that would be needed to cover wind energy lulls. This is exactly why most countries with a large base of intermittent renewable energy sources also keep large bases of fossil fuel back-up, typically combined cycle gas turbines.
In theory, if the UK had infinite amounts of money, we could build enough wind turbines to cover our total energy demand, along with pumped storage and maintain gas turbines with stored biogas for longer lull periods. But we don’t have infinite money. Scotland has even less; facing huge deficits that have to be constantly bailed out by the rest of the UK. The idea that they can achieve energy autarky using intermittent renewable energy is not realistic. In the real world, things are moving in the opposite direction. They are becoming more dependent on the rest of the UK, not less, both in terms of energy and finance. The idea of some sort of political independence is looking less likely than ever.
You can safely assume that by 2025 these smart Scots will have an energy system that is more integrated with the rest of the UK than ever before. Most of the UK’s AGRs will have closed by then and we will need more gas turbines and more natural gas to fill in the lull periods of a much larger wind generation base, which will need to cover almost the entirety of baseload generation. The near future of Scottish electricity production (as a subset of UK generation) is likely to be dominated by natural gas.
Davy on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 6:23 am
“See? Nobody is going to change your collapse a priori.”
Neder, you are the only one of the groupie gang that is not “collapse a priori” so get a grip. You guys are an anti-American group not a group with the same vies on collapse.
“I am 100% covered as regards to electricity. It is not just about investing in panels, but investing in extreme energy efficient gear as well. The fact that you consume more than I do doesn’t make you “greener” at all. Certainly not with your pickup truck.”
You got some panels on your roof that supply one person. Your consumption is different than mine. I have a family and 500 acres of land to maintain. Plus I produce food without much fossil fuel. This food is surplus food that feeds others. I don’t take joy rides like you do bouncing around Europe. My pickup truck does work and I don’t leave the farm much with the pickup truck. When you have animals they need to be transported. My wife goes to town in a outback that has decent MPG. I have invested in extreme energy efficiency too. What is your KW consumption “primary energy” and we can compare dicks. My point of the previous conversation was I have embraced renewables and you accused me of being anti-renewable. That was an attack point that is a lie.
“it is about your sabotaging efforts and talking down the possibility of the renewable energy transition, now in full swing in Europe, which you hate to see happening, as you are terrified by the idea that others are overtaking the seemingly invincible US, a relic of the past.”
My point is not sabotage of European efforts it is sabotage of your twisted agenda. It is calling into question politically motivated efforts at a renewable effort that is not realistic. 100% renewables is not realistic economically and physically. It can be significant but this happy ending talk should end so proper wisdom of what is ahead can be embraced. It is people like you that will lead us into an energy trap that may bring down civilization sooner rather than later. We could be changing behavior but it is people like you that say party on it will be fine. Oh and I get tired of your anti-Americanism because we are embracing renewables here too and you are not that far ahead. You stupid talk about the US is old and you are a fraud.
“You are all about defending the status quo of empire, with the US in the middle.”
STFU, with you standardized puke. I do not defend “Empire” I defend a country from people who have an emotional biased interest in taking it down in every way shape and form. This is just an insignificant forum. We are just a few people but we are dealing with something sacred and that is the truth. You are twisting the truth for your own personal reasons. You have no reference of me coming out in support of this Empire thing. This empire thingy is just conspiracy talk anyway. It is not the myth you have made it into. Life is much more complex than your stupid “empire” bible thumping thing you worshipers hoot and holler to. I am here to criticize US foreign policy but the rest of the world too.
“The truth is that you are being outclassed by everybody else, especially Eurasia”
Nonsense, first outclass is like a competition and the US competes and cooperates. We have allies despite what you fools say. Eurasia is not an amalgamation of likeminded nations and far from it. You are pretending.
“US is rapidly turning into a third world country”
Nonsense, The US has always had third world dynamics because of inequality and regional dynamics. Quit your agenda generalizations.
“Now give me that Natzi routine again.lol”
You are a racist pig pushing world war for your own personal reasons in support of a fantasy PBM empire that will have its basis in a fantasy renewable transition. You use race, technology, and fantasy politics to preach this sermon. You use history revisions and fantasy futures that are often lies as your support.
“And deep in your heart you know that to be true, so the only face-saving way out for you is the idea of a global collapse, wiping out a large part of humanity.”
Nonsense, we will collapse together. The nature of this process will involve timing, location, and durations that are unknown in particular but partially predictable. The combinations of the multivariable process are far too complicated for you conspiracy addicts.
“But that resource-depleting induced collapse is not going to happen.”
Who died and made you omnificent?
“Currently in 2018 the only serious risk to the planetary status quo is the developing standoff in the US between “the left” and the “white right”.”
Spare me this stale story drama queen. The left and the right have always been at odds and that will continue. We are stuck with each other.
“Or put differently: between the Deep State and European-America, that against all odds has hijacked the presidency.”
My god you are stupid and obsessive.
“Everything is pointing towards a stand-off in North-America by the end of Trump’s presidency, somewhere between later this year and 2024.”
More like everything in your twisted extremist agenda revolves around the collapse of the US so you can have the PBM Empire thingy to satisfy the lonely old man you have become in your little easy chair dreaming of pride and European glory. You could give a shit about humanity it is you that you are obsessed with. You are an isolated ego in a trance.
Davy on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 6:27 am
“…and gradually become independent from England as regards of energy (and perhaps on other terrains as well, like political independence).”
Thank you Antius for your well presented comment above that dash neder’s arguments like a rubbed out cigarette butt.
Davy on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 6:32 am
BTW, I saved your comment to my file on the renewables transition and I have many others
Davy on Thu, 21st Jun 2018 6:48 am
One thing about Russia that needs to be admired is their willingness to embrace reality and make tough decisions. The reality in the US and Europe is we need much higher retirement ages to fund the unfunded pensions of the future. I have no illusion I will have to work until I die. My social security will be gone by the time I am supposed to retire. Neder, forget about your retirement.
“Russia Raises Retirement Age Above Life Expectancy For 40% Of Men”
https://tinyurl.com/yaq5r8lz
“An estimated 40% of Russians may never live to retire, after Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev announced that the age to receive a Russian state pension would be raised from 60 to 65 for men by 2028, and from age 55 to 63 by 2034 for women. The draft legislation was discussed in the Russian cabinet on Thursday. There is one problem: a substantial portion of the Russian population will never live that long.”
“Expected to be officially adopted by next year, the new policy would mean the country’s retirement age for men would be only a year lower than the World Health Organisation’s estimated life expectancy for a Russian man of 66. It estimated around 40 per cent of men and 20 per cent of women may not live long enough to claim their pensions under the new rules. -Independent.co.uk”