[careinke]

People have actually starved to death because they could not overcome their food aversions.

[dorlomin]

I am very much a moderate because I seperate The End Of The World and The End Of The World As We Know It.

Start stripping away all of the things we dont really need after all and the amount of energy required to get by is not a daunting figure. The end of the current psuedo laissez fair capitalism will not be the end of the world. And it is ulikely to be the end of capitalism in many forms.

How all this unfolds will depend on the models different societies chose but there is absolutely no need for die off or mass starvations for a long while yet. If we are doomed we doom ourselves not geology or entorpy, our choices.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')there is absolutely no need for die off or mass starvations for a long while yet.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')Start stripping away all of the things we dont really need after all and the amount of energy required to get by is not a daunting figure. The end of the current psuedo laissez fair capitalism will not be the end of the world. And it is ulikely to be the end of capitalism in many forms. .

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')there is absolutely no need for die off or mass starvations for a long while yet.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')
People can be suprisingly adaptable and willing to change.

[sparky]

[quote="dorlomin"]

It depends on choices but the usual given figure is that 20% of our energy consumption goes to food


I've looked into that and can tell you there is a very clear relationship between standard of living and percentage of income spend on food
first tier countries , with a power usage of 4 Kw per person per day or more , spend 15 to 20% of their budget
second tier countries use around 2kw their food need is around 30%
for the bottom of the pack at less than 1 Kw pppd the share of food goes from 50% to 100%
when the income is still insufficient , that malnutrition , possibly seasonal , then starvation

each country has it's own class profile with the rich moving up the energy ladder
while in rich country the poors have a comparable profile as the third world

Food / Energy is one whole , it is impossible to make a distinction

.

[odhara.roc]

In think that, Peak oil Moderate is a source of energy.
It depends on choices about 20% of our energy.


 instyler

[sparky]

.

Nope , no choices are possible

... the energy profile of the 1910 Europe lead to , in the best case to a political profile of the 1910 Europe

an energy profile of the roman Empire reproduce a society of , at best , Roman structures

welcome back to the last " sustainable phase ... 1600ies , plenty of sharp minds ( and sharper swords )
first looser are the women ........ no surprise there !

Each profile by itself is OK , getting there downward is rather painful of course
but I'm an incorrigible optimist and believe we can't really wipe out the planet ,


..... though we certainly are capable of wiping ourselves out



.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sparky', '.')

Nope , no choices are possible

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'W')hat an irresponsible comment.

[sparky]

.

It also happen to be the absolute truth ,

The only vaguely realistic prospect would be to set an isolated society of Amish plus firepower


.

[turner]

I don't think you can talk about fast or slow crash in any uniform way. Surely, it's going to be completely different in varying locations. How will Iceland fair vrs Hong Kong, Nigeria, rural US, NYC or NZ, etc? They are so diverse in terms of population, resources, weather etc, that you couldn't possibly make a meaningful comparison. IMO there will be fast crash and slow crash simultaneously. How that all pans out in the long run is then anyone's guess.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sparky', '.')

It also happen to be the absolute truth ,

The only vaguely realistic prospect would be to set an isolated society of Amish plus firepower


.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')Could you explain why there would be no difference to carrying capacity between a future where we continue to deplete the soil and another where we actively try to improve soil health?

Absolute truths tend to have the whiff of dogma about them.

[sparky]

.

I' m not preaching inaction ,
simply pointing out that things will happen at a scale much larger than individual decision making

if (as I fear) population numbers are going to be adjusted downward ,
the possible remedies are not obvious ,
people respond to natural pressures in the natural way ,
conflicts , predation , either small scale or government sponsored

In a Darwinian way , natural selection will provide the problem and the solution
the process could take several possible form
what is certain is that there will be millions of people who will remain ,


They will not be the brightest or the kindest

.

[Revi]

I think a peak oil moderate is anyone who thinks a future is possible beyond fighting the zombie hordes.

It may come to that, but there might be some other way.

[mos6507]

Just remember that the world is a very big and diverse place and doom at an individual level is already a reality for a great many people due to factors that have nothing to do with peak oil. So the simplistic notion we have of the globe's standard of living steadily and equally degrading into Mad Max and Soylent Green is just not going to happen. It will be asymmetrical, with pockets holding onto more comfort and security longer, and other parts of the globe having the rug pulled out from under them and going down in an export-land-model style fast-crash that some might judge as genocidal. That's what die off will look like. That's why there is such fetishism in doomers surrounding location, or this moralizing about who will make out better than whom. Let's face it, whether you're a banker with some survival yacht and a costa-rican bugout or a modest doomsteader, everyone wants to secure their own livelihood even if it's at the expense of someone else. We've never had a utopia even during times of plenty and we sure as hell aren't going to have one in the era of overshoot, so there is no sense hand-wringing over it. It's not really about how virtuous or generous we want to be. I'm all for a community response, but in the end somebody somewhere's going to be left holding the short end of the stick and I'd rather it not be me.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'J')ust remember that the world is a very big and diverse place and doom at an individual level is already a reality for a great many people due to factors that have nothing to do with peak oil. So the simplistic notion we have of the globe's standard of living steadily and equally degrading into Mad Max and Soylent Green is just not going to happen. It will be asymmetrical, with pockets holding onto more comfort and security longer, and other parts of the globe having the rug pulled out from under them and going down in an export-land-model style fast-crash that some might judge as genocidal. That's what die off will look like. That's why there is such fetishism in doomers surrounding location, or this moralizing about who will make out better than whom. Let's face it, whether you're a banker with some survival yacht and a costa-rican bugout or a modest doomsteader, everyone wants to secure their own livelihood even if it's at the expense of someone else. We've never had a utopia even during times of plenty and we sure as hell aren't going to have one in the era of overshoot, so there is no sense hand-wringing over it. It's not really about how virtuous or generous we want to be. I'm all for a community response, but in the end somebody somewhere's going to be left holding the short end of the stick and I'd rather it not be me.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turner', 'I') don't think you can talk about fast or slow crash in any uniform way. Surely, it's going to be completely different in varying locations. How will Iceland fair vrs Hong Kong, Nigeria, rural US, NYC or NZ, etc? They are so diverse in terms of population, resources, weather etc, that you couldn't possibly make a meaningful comparison. IMO there will be fast crash and slow crash simultaneously. How that all pans out in the long run is then anyone's guess.