[Quinny]

I was looking at some debt figures the other day, and asked myself how much debt is actually cancelled out by a contra transaction?

What if netted out there was zero debt? Other more direct World order and PO related questions spring to mind as well.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'I') was looking at some debt figures the other day, and asked myself how much debt is actually cancelled out by a contra transaction?

What if netted out there was zero debt? Other more direct World order and PO related questions spring to mind as well.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'I') was looking at some debt figures the other day, and asked myself how much debt is actually cancelled out by a contra transaction?

What if netted out there was zero debt? Other more direct World order and PO related questions spring to mind as well.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Fiat currencies are a whole different ball of string because they grow or (rarely) shrink by fiat, the will of the government issuing them and they shift from representing wealth to representing debt. If every American in the country were to simply take one dollar bill out of their pocket and burn it today that would decrease the money supply by say $200,000,000.00 In theory this would shrink the money supply by an equal amount and increase the value of the remaining money by a small percentage. However the ability to do this is almost eliminated by the fact that in our current culture about 99% of money is actually in the form of a digital illusion, just numbers in a bank ledger without even a paper dollar of physical substance to give it meaning.

[EdwinSm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'h')ow much debt is actually cancelled out by a contra transaction?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Fiat currencies are a whole different ball of string because they grow or (rarely) shrink by fiat, the will of the government issuing them and they shift from representing wealth to representing debt. If every American in the country were to simply take one dollar bill out of their pocket and burn it today that would decrease the money supply by say $200,000,000.00 In theory this would shrink the money supply by an equal amount and increase the value of the remaining money by a small percentage. However the ability to do this is almost eliminated by the fact that in our current culture about 99% of money is actually in the form of a digital illusion, just numbers in a bank ledger without even a paper dollar of physical substance to give it meaning.

[kanon]

The Federal Reserve system, and all the major central bank systems are based on "credit money." Money is issued by commercial banks when they fund loans. The bank itself does not have the money to lend, rather it has the power to create and issue money. This is not the way other money systems work, but it is how the FED, ECB, Bank of Japan, PBOC, etc. operate. Money, among other things, is a way of managing accounts in a public manner. For example, the $20 in your wallet tells the world you have 20 units positive. Otherwise they have to trust your check or credit card, i.e. believe you are a good debtor. Debt is not the same as money, but the two are often intertwined as they are in the FED system. So, under the FED system, if there was zero debt, there would be zero money. Of course, people would quickly create a money system of some sort and it is not necessary to have a system that combines debt with money, but then the FED and the ruling class it supports would not have their dominant position. So, the best answer is if there was zero debt the FED and the ruling class would be replaced with something else.

[GHung]

Since the idea of a "jubilee" goes back at least as far as the old testament, It's clear that societies, economies, and religions understood the need for a reset of things.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')rawn from the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy, the concept derives from the biblical injunction for a day of rest one day out of every week, a “sabbath” day that reflects the teaching the God rested on the seventh day after creating the world in six.

There is another injunction for a sabbath year every seventh year, in which people are to not work, and on the year after the seventh of those sabbatical years , i.e. the 50th, (one year after the 49th) there would be a jubilee year during which any slaves would be emancipated and everyone would return to their land and family to live off of natural providence. A clear implication of this teaching is that all obligations, including debt obligations, would be forgiven in the process.
https://theconversation.com/the-debt-ju ... isis-11816

[kanon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'S')ince the idea of a "jubilee" goes back at least as far as the old testament, It's clear that societies, economies, and religions understood the need for a reset of things.
. . . . How these resets play out varies, but I posit that our current global system, especially with the use of technology, is over-leveraged to an extraordinary extent and will have an unprecedented reset (which is normally an attempt at rebalancing things), and fear that our level of overshoot (out-of-balance condition) relative to the carrying capacity of our environment, will force a reset of all of our societal systems. We don't have any wiggle room and are running out of planet to exploit. Not nearly enough lifeboats.

[GHung]

kanon said; "But we could educate ourselves on the money subject and create a system that did not require destruction of the environment, colonial exploitation, debt servitude, etc. If, of course, we could understand how to maintain acceptable social relations in the process."

Are you kidding? The is no "we" when it comes to being proactive about the future and long-term benefits to society, especially when it involves 'haves and have-nots' and the 'haves' giving up something for the betterment of the collective..

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kanon', ' ')Debt is not the same as money, but the two are often intertwined as they are in the FED system. So, under the FED system, if there was zero debt, there would be zero money.

[onlooker]

I agree with Ghung in that we are tremendously overleveraged. By we I mean pretty much all societies and countries. Debt in modernity has become our mode of operation. And so we have arrived at a point whereby if true honest accounting were to take place, most if not all entities would be bankrupt. By honest accounting, it would be zero debt or more precisely zero lending and so true discovery of prices and balance sheet totals.
Thus, our monetary system has become totally divorced from the true worth of all our assets around us. In some cases we charge much more then they are really worth in others much less. One sees that in the relentless inflation and appreciation of assets in general. Does anyone seriously think the Stock Market reflects an accurate version of our economic situation. It has devolved into simply a gambling casino for the mostly very rich entities and people. In order to realize this Zero debt proposal, we would have to completely eradicate the current system and install another without lending if possible. And if not possible, the lending would be asset/resource based so that willy nilly lending could not start up again and loans would be issued consistent with the true worth of assets of both creditor and debtor.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'I') agree with Ghung in that we are tremendously overleveraged.
.......
........... In order to realize this Zero debt proposal, we would have to completely eradicate the current system and install another without lending if possible. And if not possible, the lending would be asset/resource based so that willy nilly lending could not start up again and loans would be issued consistent with the true worth of assets of both creditor and debtor.

[onlooker]

Well actually the way it is from my understanding currently in the Banking system what exists if Fractional Reserve Banking. That would be whereby the Bank can lend you 90% or so of the loan without it being accounted for in the Deposits of the Bank. The Bank only required to have 10% or so of the loan actually on deposit. This is the system that has been created. The assumption being ALL the depositors will NOT withdraw their money all at once. Of course the US govt. stands by a certain sum should their be a run on the banks, I think 100 grand or something. Of course the other insidious parts of the current lending system is compound interest and fiat money ie. money out of thin air. So, I am glad you are seeing that this has gotten out of hand. We can attest to that by the statistics of how Americans are drowing in debt. Oh and I have even heard people buy groceries with credit cards. geez

[mmasters]

If there was no debt there would be no money. Money is manufactured by the debt people accept and the fact people are willing to work for it.

[onlooker]

Neither money nor Debt preclude or necessarily have to include each other. In past times, people were bound to certain duties or obligations as a form of repayment, so you can look at that as Debt. Also, past societies had money but no lending per say. But certainly money and lending go hand in hand, in so much as money can be printed, manufactured or bought into existence easily to serve as loans and certainly modern Banking system has been one of the most lucrative industries ever on this planet.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'I')f there was no debt there would be no money. Money is manufactured by the debt people accept and the fact people are willing to work for it.

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'I')f there was no debt there would be no money. Money is manufactured by the debt people accept and the fact people are willing to work for it.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'I')f there was no debt there would be no money. Money is manufactured by the debt people accept and the fact people are willing to work for it.

[kanon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kanon', ' ')Debt is not the same as money, but the two are often intertwined as they are in the FED system. So, under the FED system, if there was zero debt, there would be zero money.