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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 21:24:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '2')Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Clueless, does the bible only refer to happening on the Earth? If god burns up the Earth, what does he do with the other planets? Is life on those planets extiguished at the same time, or does god's plan for them have a different timeline?
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:05:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3')% jews


Orthodox Jews.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:07:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')eavens


Heavens means everything, the universe.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:08:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3')% jews


Orthodox Jews.


That is being very disingenous. Are you claiming that Israel is not a Jewish state?
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:12:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')eavens


Heavens means everything, the universe.


Heavens in Biblical terms refer to a number of specific tiers of "heaven" that exist above the earth.

The earth is not counted as part of heaven.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:22:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')eavens


Heavens means everything, the universe.


Thanks, everything except wherever god is I guess? What does your faith tell you about life in other parts of the universe? Did god give them the same bible? Is all the life in the universe on earth according to your belief? Does your faith allow you to just say that you don't know?

While I know next to nothing about what any religous faiths profess in detail. I've been interested when religions take positions on physical sciences like what revolves around what, or what shape the earth is etc. At the time, nobody knew the answer so I guess it seemed reasonable.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:31:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')The earth is not counted as part of heaven.


That seems clear from the passage.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'H')eavens in Biblical terms refer to a number of specific tiers of "heaven" that exist above the earth.


This doesn't seem correct in the passage above. Why would the Lord melt that heaven up? I don't know the context of the passage. It is interesting that it compares the Lord to a 'thief in the night'. I wouldn't think that is kosher.


Clueless, who interprets your bible? Is there a sect leader of some kind or do you interpret the words yourself ?

edit: sorry had the quotes messedd up
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:55:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')The earth is not counted as part of heaven.


That seems clear from the passage.


However the Earth is part of the universe, hence heaven or heavens can not be equated with the universe.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 23:14:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'H')owever the Earth is part of the universe, hence heaven or heavens can not be equated with the universe.


What is that voodoo you are using? Logic? Set Theory?

(just kidding)
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 23:46:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'T')he earth is not designed for accumulation in an agrarian way of life, which is how God created it (My belief)


Your belief is in certain aspects similar to the Anabaptists; Amish, Menonites, Church of the Brethern. Those are part of my roots for your information. You probably noticed the Amish school shooting in the news today in Lancaster county Pa. That is where I spent a great deal of my childhood. My father was a tobacco farmer in Lancaster county and he went to a one room country school house with menonites and was himself a member of the Church of the Brethern. His neighbors were mostly Amish. He was a soldier in WWII and met my mother, a roman catholic Italian from Rome. Both my parents rejected their religious beliefs during my childhood and I was raised mostly athiest.

I have a great respect for the Amish culture, their non violent, agrarian philosophy that rejected so many aspects of modern technology. One of the great lessons I saw as a pre peak oil primer was in the 70 and 80's when the Amish, who had no debt, bought no Monsanto products nor financed any combines, were successful while many of their farming neighbors were selling their small family farms as they couldn't compete against the large agro industry farms.

Their religion is a very private non proselitizing sort that earns my greatest respect. I am not a christian hater Clueless but I have seen so much hypocracy in the name of religion, both historically and especially here today in the USA, that I see it's cumulative effect far more of a hindrance than an asset.

I am calling a truce with you Clueless. It's your choice what you believe as it is my choice what I believe. You have 100% of my respect if you let the bible guide you in your pathway toward living sustainably especially if you achieve it. This planet needs all the help it can get and if you can separate other christians away from ther materialistic ignorant unsustainable habits in the process using your bible then more power to you.

Would that be enough for you though? You wouldn't feel compelled to convert your neighbors who rejected your belief? This is where my deepest suspicions and distrust lies. If you allow yourselves the literal belief of the bible to supercede the overwelming evidence in the phsyical world concerning topics like evolution and the age of the planet than for me therein lies the same arrogance and madness of your superiority that will want to convert all those who don't believe as you do.

I thank my parents for some of the christian values they gave me but I mostly thank them for their wisdom in raising me agnostic leaning towards athiest and how this spared me the fate that you voluntarily took up in your life as an adult. One mans chains is another mans salvation. How odd these mental constructs are.

And I haven't yet shared with you the years I rejected my parents athiesm and became a Sanyasin in India or the time I spent in buddhist monastaries in the himalayas in meditation retreats.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 00:13:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'H')owever the Earth is part of the universe, hence heaven or heavens can not be equated with the universe.


What is that voodoo you are using? Logic? Set Theory?

(just kidding)


Logic.

The expression "Heaven and Earth" exists because Earth is not included in Heaven, also "Here on Earth as it is in Heaven" etc.

However the planet Earth is in the universe, so universe cannot equate with biblical heaven.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 11:58:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s all the life in the universe on earth according to your belief? Does your faith allow you to just say that you don't know?


I actually don't know - the Bible does not mention it, and I have never been to other planets, so I could not answer that with any foundational knowledge.

I believe the Heavens to mean the universe (including the earth in all it's entirety).

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

It is he (GOD) who is the "Strong Force" (what I call the unseen force) that holds the molecular world together...One day he will simply release his grip and the whole shootin match will dissolve.

The comparison to coming "as a thief in the night" refers to a time that will be unexpected - Kind of like now when men are Proud and full of worldly, meaningless knowledge, and thererfore have no need of a Sovereign God who created them and made all things for his pleasure.

I am not in any particualr sect - And I read that passage myself (in english and greek) and determined for myself what it means.

Here is the truth behing ROG's "ever expanding universe".

By the way: circle means sphere, and refuted the flat earth believers that came to light 4000 years later.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:03:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd I haven't yet shared with you the years I rejected my parents athiesm and became a Sanyasin in India or the time I spent in buddhist monastaries in the himalayas in meditation retreats.


Did you see Everest ?? I am fascinated with that area. I'm reading a book about K2 right now...
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:10:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy would the Lord melt that heaven up?


Because the entire physical universe (creation) is in a fallen (from an original state of perfection) state, and therefore cannot co-exist (A cannot equal non A) with a perfect God.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:24:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'I') am not in any particualr sect - And I read that passage myself (in english and greek) and determined for myself what it means.


This sounds just a tad bit new age christian to me. So you are not in any particular denomination or sect? I would be interested for you to be more specific on this if you feel free to share.

Clueless, I would like your opinion on something. I have made a bold statement that since you take the bible literally it becomes a fixed belief system and no longer able to evolve or cross pollinate and adapt to the times (as in todays overpopulated world) and is therefore in danger of extinction. Christian sects and denominations come and go through the ages. How do you see christianity evolving as an organized institute in a way that it can contribute toward transforming our cullture toward sustainability?
Your answer will have to go beyond the individuals relation to christ since that is understood. I'm talking about how you see christianity's potential to become an institutional force toward sustainability.

The Dalai Lama was once asked about abortion and birth control and what is the buddhist position. He responded on the non-violence of buddhism as a moral tenant but said that religion must evolve with the ages and that instead of fixed moral positions on any action one must see the motivation behind the action. In other words the goodness and purity of the action will flavour the act. If the intent is virtuous then it does ultimately flavour whether an action is morally defendable. I have taken some liberty in his interpretation here but I think I got the jist of it right. In a sense he was saying the buddhism could support more draconian actions of population control if the motivation behind it was virtuous.

Can you see a similar flexibility in christianity?
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:36:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd I haven't yet shared with you the years I rejected my parents athiesm and became a Sanyasin in India or the time I spent in buddhist monastaries in the himalayas in meditation retreats.


Did you see Everest ?? I am fascinated with that area. I'm reading a book about K2 right now...


Yes. I spent most of my time in Nepal and Bhutan. WE home schooled my two daughters for one year in 2005 after I sold my business and we travelled through India, Nepal and Bhutan. We did a family trek for 25 days on the Anapurnas. It was great since there was only 1/10th the normal toursim due to the maoist insurgency and political conflict. I spent some time in a buudhist retreat in Kathmundu that was marvelous. Bhutan is such a jewel. An enlightened king who is an ardent environmentalist, as was his father. 80% of their forests are old growth and preserved and the buddhism there is alive and not influenced from modern consumerism. Their government rejects the idea of GNP and came up with a new criteria to measure the well being of their citizenry. Its called GNH...gross national happiness! I'm serious. The well being of their citizenry is not based on what they produce as a nation but on how well they manage their environment, health care, education, curb corruption etc.

for several yearsin the 80's I followed a flipped out guru Osho (formerly known as Bhagwan shree Rajneesh) . You may remember the ranch they had in your home state of Oregon back in the 80's and all the intrigue surrounding its demise. It was a wild time when I look back on that now. So much energy and so much deception. I learned alot of lessons from that.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:39:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s all the life in the universe on earth according to your belief? Does your faith allow you to just say that you don't know?


I actually don't know - the Bible does not mention it, and I have never been to other planets, so I could not answer that with any foundational knowledge.


I find that really interesting. I don't know either. But, if we eventually find intelligent life on other planets and they are quoting the same bible, I will be converted!


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'T')he comparison to coming "as a thief in the night" refers to a time that will be unexpected - Kind of like now when men are Proud and full of worldly, meaningless knowledge, and thererfore have no need of a Sovereign God who created them and made all things for his pleasure.


Unexpected, now? It seems like most people who believe in this type stuff are expecting it very soon. When you least expect it, expect it - does not seem to apply to now.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'I') am not in any particualr sect - And I read that passage myself (in english and greek) and determined for myself what it means.


Cool, and I am impressed that you can read Greek. I spent a bit of time in Crete and never learned the language beyond how to order food or ask directions.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:42:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his sounds just a tad bit new age christian to me. So you are not in any particular denomination or sect? I would be interested for you to be more specific on this if you feel free to share.


I attend a "Baptist" church now, but have also attended Calvary Chapels and severl other independent local congregations. As far as interpretations go, My comments on that are not off of many mainstream interpretations, some think a nuke, some state what I believe, in any case the end result for all practical purposes (in regards to that passage) would be the same for human life on this planet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow do you see christianity evolving as an organized institute in a way that it can contribute toward transforming our cullture toward sustainability?


Looking at the Bible as strictly a historical source of information shows Famines (food supply unequal to demand) were very very common all through Biblical times, and devestated populations even causing people to resort to cannibalism. I don't know why, but for some reason Pastors today aren't warning their congregations to live sustainably like the Priests did for the Jews, and for some reason the Church thinks they are exempt from famines - I guess not a whole lot different from the world. I cannot, for all practical purposes see the visible Christian Church making any serious attempt towards wise living, there is too much apostacy. There is Methodist Church in my city that is very big into sustainability, but has a female Pastor (which I don't believe in). I do however, see once the famine begins to set in, the Christian church being very proactive in serving the community - Once they are woken up.

Christians are not opposed to Birth control, Catholics for some reason are. Myself, I chose to have two kids simply because they require more supervision these days. Catholics on the other hand (along with Muslims) are largely family traditional religions and beleive in "breeding" themselves into power, so I don't know what to say about how the church views birth control. I do not ever see the church changing it's view on abortion as we believe life begins in the womb.

Let me ask you a question: Corporations run the world. do you see them ever changing ? I don't.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:47:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ool, and I am impressed that you can read Greek. I spent a bit of time in Crete and never learned the language beyond how to order food or ask directions.


I cannot tell a lie - I read the greek via a Strongs Greek dictionary...
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:49:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')he Dalai Lama was once asked about abortion and birth control and what is the buddhist position. He responded on the non-violence of buddhism as a moral tenant but said that religion must evolve with the ages and that instead of fixed moral positions on any action one must see the motivation behind the action. In other words the goodness and purity of the action will flavour the act. If the intent is virtuous then it does ultimately flavour whether an action is morally defendable.


To me this seems rational. Here, religion seems more of a belief in a philosophy. Christianity seems more to me like a belief in an explaination. I am very ignorant of both of these so please forgive me if I'm being stupid.

Does buddhism offer a reason why goodness and purity are 'right'? Is that dictated from some higher power or do they claim it is self-evident or is it based on practical experience or what ? I guess I should take some religion courses. Didn't have much time for that in engineering school.
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