PeakOil is You
THE Al Gore Thread pt 2 (merged)
THE Al Gore Thread pt 2 (merged)
by rockdoc123 » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 14:49:40
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')o my mind the only downsides to combating it is a cleaner less energy intensive planet.
I would agree if there was limitless capital available to solve the world's problems, unfortunately there is not. An argument made by one group of European economists was that it made more sense to spend capital on issues that 1. we are absolutely sure of the cause and 2. we have a proven means of solving. As a consequence in their analysis things like HIV, getting third world countries to move away from wood burning for fuel, malaria etc. are better places to spend money by far than global warming.
-
rockdoc123 - Expert
- Posts: 7685
- Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 03:00:00
Re: Al Gore: Doubting AGW is Akin to Believing Earth is Flat
by Lore » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 21:23:32
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')o my mind the only downsides to combating it is a cleaner less energy intensive planet.
I would agree if there was limitless capital available to solve the world's problems, unfortunately there is not. An argument made by one group of European economists was that it made more sense to spend capital on issues that 1. we are absolutely sure of the cause and 2. we have a proven means of solving. As a consequence in their analysis things like HIV, getting third world countries to move away from wood burning for fuel, malaria etc. are better places to spend money by far than global warming.
I don't think anyone is talking about the use of limitless capital to mediate the issue of climate change nor does it escalate to that. This idea that any action will break the back of world economies, or that the money is better spent doing things we are sure about is an often repeated straw man argument.
For one thing, we will never be absolutely 100% sure. However, if you agree with the 90%+ probability as put forth by the IPCC that AGW is indeed a fact, then as a matter of good risk management, by the statistics alone, you are obliged to take some type of action.
All this kind of talk is the Bjorn Lomborg delayist argument. This for me is worst then being a denialist. We have enough money in the world to remedy all those social problems now, with enough left over to be engaged in a few fruitless wars. We only lack the will to do so. The lack of world morality in one man helping his fellow man is well documented.
I would worry more about stopping first world countries from burning wood in the future, with the way things are going, then that of poor third world nations.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
... Theodore Roosevelt
-
Lore - Fission
- Posts: 9021
- Joined: Fri 26 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
- Location: Fear Of A Blank Planet
Re: Al Gore: Doubting AGW is Akin to Believing Earth is Flat
by dissident » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 12:33:09
dohboi,
You are right the CO2 15 micron vibrational band overlaps a gap in the H2O rotational continuum band:
http://jcbmac.chem.brown.edu/baird/CHEM ... 2Absn.html
But CO2 is also more effective at blocking infrared emission. See the middle figure at
http://ceos.cnes.fr:8100/cdrom-00/ceos1 ... g/dg20.htm
which shows the radiance distribution between around 7 to 20 microns. But the fundamental point is that increasing an absorber gas amount in the atmosphere leads to increasing the equilibrium temperature.
The only thing that breaks this simple picture is albedo. But unlike some may wish (e.g. Lindzen) there is no magical cloud formation process that provides increased albedo in the visible spectrum in just the right amount to offset the additional infrared trapping. More water vapour in the atmosphere does not exclusively go into formation of low level clouds, it jacks up the formation of high level clouds (e.g. cirrus) that are very effective at trapping infrared radiation. Satellite observations have confirmed that there is a strong increasing trend of water vapour in the upper troposphere and lowermost stratosphere (Soden et al 2005). This is also an interesting read:
http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cms/andrew/pape ... _feedb.pdf
You are right the CO2 15 micron vibrational band overlaps a gap in the H2O rotational continuum band:
http://jcbmac.chem.brown.edu/baird/CHEM ... 2Absn.html
But CO2 is also more effective at blocking infrared emission. See the middle figure at
http://ceos.cnes.fr:8100/cdrom-00/ceos1 ... g/dg20.htm
which shows the radiance distribution between around 7 to 20 microns. But the fundamental point is that increasing an absorber gas amount in the atmosphere leads to increasing the equilibrium temperature.
The only thing that breaks this simple picture is albedo. But unlike some may wish (e.g. Lindzen) there is no magical cloud formation process that provides increased albedo in the visible spectrum in just the right amount to offset the additional infrared trapping. More water vapour in the atmosphere does not exclusively go into formation of low level clouds, it jacks up the formation of high level clouds (e.g. cirrus) that are very effective at trapping infrared radiation. Satellite observations have confirmed that there is a strong increasing trend of water vapour in the upper troposphere and lowermost stratosphere (Soden et al 2005). This is also an interesting read:
http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cms/andrew/pape ... _feedb.pdf
- dissident
- Expert
- Posts: 6458
- Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Re: Al Gore: Doubting AGW is Akin to Believing Earth is Flat
by dohboi » Mon 14 Apr 2008, 10:27:59
Thanks, diss. Nice to have someone both intelligent and sincere on the thread!
I thought I heard that even Lindzen had come around to acknowledging AGW. Did I mis-read something?
I thought I heard that even Lindzen had come around to acknowledging AGW. Did I mis-read something?
-
dohboi - Harmless Drudge
- Posts: 19990
- Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Gore - The Ultimate Global Warming Hysteric
by Cashmere » Wed 07 May 2008, 16:42:10
AIDSisCausedByGlobalWarming
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') “And as we’re talking today, Terry, the death count in Myanmar from the cyclone that hit there yesterday has been rising from 15,000 to way on up there to much higher numbers now being speculated,” Gore said. “And last year a catastrophic storm from last fall hit Bangladesh. The year before, the strongest cyclone in more than 50 years hit China – and we’re seeing consequences that scientists have long predicted might be associated with continued global warming.”
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') “And as we’re talking today, Terry, the death count in Myanmar from the cyclone that hit there yesterday has been rising from 15,000 to way on up there to much higher numbers now being speculated,” Gore said. “And last year a catastrophic storm from last fall hit Bangladesh. The year before, the strongest cyclone in more than 50 years hit China – and we’re seeing consequences that scientists have long predicted might be associated with continued global warming.”
How long is it before this hysterical man proposes shooting crap into the atmosphere?
This guy is scary.
-
Cashmere - Heavy Crude
- Posts: 1882
- Joined: Thu 27 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
