[TheDude]

We've got politically sinister (literal meaning) types like americandream and Eastbay, but they formulate coherent arguments from a base of familiarity with history and sound reasoning. Where are the crude ad hominems and murky conspiracies, guys? Why is raving about the sordid intentions of one's political opposites strictly the regimen of ultra right fanatics on this site? Why aren't we getting any fellow travelers wandering in from Kos and Huff Po?

Hmmm?

[threadbear]

F**** you. I left because YOU were out to get me, with you know...them.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'W')e've got politically sinister (literal meaning) types like americandream and Eastbay, but they formulate coherent arguments from a base of familiarity with history and sound reasoning. Where are the crude ad hominems and murky conspiracies, guys? Why is raving about the sordid intentions of one's political opposites strictly the regimen of ultra right fanatics on this site? Why aren't we getting any fellow travelers wandering in from Kos and Huff Po?

Hmmm?

[Fishman]

Speaking as a perceived "ultra right fanatic", the last 9 months have been hard on the "leftist whackjobs". Obama was elected, Bush did not extend his reign of terror abandoning elections, Obama did not immediately call for a new 9/11 truth commission. Obama has expanded a war, Iran really is an asp. The Democratic Congress and president are a flop. Economic turmoil has not lead to a workers paradise.....
You know, reality.

[sjn]

I don't think the irrational Left really can accept Peak Oil, just too much cognitive dissonance , so you're just left with us!

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'S')peaking as a perceived "ultra right fanatic", the last 9 months have been hard on the "leftist whackjobs". Obama was elected, Bush did not extend his reign of terror abandoning elections, Obama did not immediately call for a new 9/11 truth commission. The Democratic Congress and president are a flop. Economic turmoil has not lead to a workers paradise.....
You know, reality.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'S')peaking as a perceived "ultra right fanatic", the last 9 months have been hard on the "leftist whackjobs". Obama was elected, Bush did not extend his reign of terror abandoning elections, Obama did not immediately call for a new 9/11 truth commission. The Democratic Congress and president are a flop. Economic turmoil has not lead to a workers paradise.....
You know, reality.

[Fishman]

Notice how I did not include obama in that last comment, AD. It's those little attention to details (reality ) that seems to elude "leftist whackjobs" Thanks for being the example.

[Jotapay]

Eastbay told me I supported lynching, although I proved I didn't. I never found his arguments to be well-supported.

[Fishman]

Again S, I didn't say US politics were leftist, I was speaking of "leftist whackjobs". Please, no more examples

[Auntie_Cipation]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'L')OL most of us lefties are just leaning against the door post & having a quick smoke before the action starts. Also it's fun watching capitalism blow itself to pieces. It's been a long time coming. No point in commenting on anything really, just enjoy the show...

JP

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'N')otice how I did not include obama in that last comment, AD. It's those little attention to details (reality ) that seems to elude "leftist whackjobs" Thanks for being the example.

[JPL]

Nothing against my American friends on the forum, but I'm not sure 'left' always means quite the same thing in the US as it does in Europe (grin).

Hint: It's not just about healthcare plans...

JP

[americandream]

Fish, you have nothing to fear but the unsubsidised work the new globalised order of capital will COMPEL.

[Fishman]

AD
First, lets see where we agree, obama sucks, add a few words but a rose smells the same regardless of the name
Where we might disagree, um peak oil is supposed to kill off globalization, you know no transport. But workers unite, oh wait, won't "the new globalised order of capital will COMPEL" pretty much kill that off too? Details, details, now you're not even paying attention to the reality you've created.
PS, I'm not worried, my "shop" should do just fine

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'W')e've got politically sinister (literal meaning) types like americandream and Eastbay, but they formulate coherent arguments from a base of familiarity with history and sound reasoning. Where are the crude ad hominems and murky conspiracies, guys?
Hmmm?

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'A')D
First, lets see where we agree, obama sucks, add a few words but a rose smells the same regardless of the name
Where we might disagree, um peak oil is supposed to kill off globalization, you know no transport. But workers unite, oh wait, won't "the new globalised order of capital will COMPEL" pretty much kill that off too? Details, details, now you're not even paying attention to the reality you've created.
PS, I'm not worried, my "shop" should do just fine

[outcast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'W')e've got politically sinister (literal meaning) types like americandream and Eastbay, but they formulate coherent arguments from a base of familiarity with history and sound reasoning. Where are the crude ad hominems and murky conspiracies, guys? Why is raving about the sordid intentions of one's political opposites strictly the regimen of ultra right fanatics on this site? Why aren't we getting any fellow travelers wandering in from Kos and Huff Po?

Hmmm?

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'W')e've got politically sinister (literal meaning) types like americandream and Eastbay, but they formulate coherent arguments from a base of familiarity with history and sound reasoning. Where are the crude ad hominems and murky conspiracies, guys? Why is raving about the sordid intentions of one's political opposites strictly the regimen of ultra right fanatics on this site? Why aren't we getting any fellow travelers wandering in from Kos and Huff Po?

Hmmm?

[DrBang]

Now I have been painted with the consiparcy leftist hat but guys I went to school with (they are now all free market true eblieveers with double degrees in law and economics). Think I am a dangerous lunatic guilty of insurrection.

We debated back an forth for a few years between 2004 and 2007. They claimed that all we are seeing in front of us is purely govt mismanagement and incompetence. Government is bad and private enterprise is the only way to go. Society serves the economy, not the econmy serves soceity. Tax is theft. Any money spent on services like abulance where they did not directly benefit is also theft. They also refuse to believe that the offical 9/11 story has anything wrong with it. The war on terror is good for business and those terrorists had it coming. Iraq was all about WMD and Saddam Hussien helped fund 9/11. They also believe that politics in the US is pure democracy at work and the two party system tells all. They think the US and the US dollar is toast but don't believe the AEMRO exists, nor the NAU, nor the NWO. The one good thing they did was introduce me to Dr Ron Paul.

In the end we solved nothing. Each of us were too invested in our world views to budge. I found that the debate was defined and controlled, not by the 'facts' but by the belief system of the combatants and their willingness to allow certain data into the debate. Things that did not match up to their world view was discredited. Taunts of cherry picking and fear mongering carried the day. All I achieved was the permenant damaging of several long term friendships. I now wish I had not engaged them, simply agreed with them and kept my own counsel.

The past 18 months has been volatile and crazy. Ironically, each of us in the debate saw things that confirmed our respective world views and refuted our respective nemesis'. I thought this very interesting. What is a dangerous lunatic to do? Tin foil hats can be tricky to make. I think no one has all the answers. It does not pay to believe your own PR.

To break the deadlock, as I would rather have my friends back and don't mind looking like a goose, I made a proposal. I made a series of predictions to be seen by 2013 (first year of the next US presidental cycle). For each prediction not met, I offered a pint of beer of their choice. I think a pink tootoo was also mentioned.

I then asked them to make a series of predictions around the same things. I asked for nothing in return as if I was right we were all in the shit and had better things to worry about. If I was wrong, I have been scaring my friends and investing mental energy on things that did not exist, in response to, I get drunk with my mates. For many consirpacy theories, the next few years will either prove them right.... or wrong. "Shit of get off the pot" I believe the appropriate phrase is.

This is what was required of me in my own head. If I do believe this stuff, step up and take responsibility for your belief's. Hold your self accountable if you get it wrong.

For the last 6 months or so I have gotten tired to sparring with true believers. It acheieves nothing. I now feel I don't have to. That phrase "reality" mentioned by an earlier poster will tell the tale in the near future. The right wingers can rant all they want. The left wingers can do the same. In short order though, we will have the answer. It doesn't really matter to me that I convince these people. How it all unfolds will define whether we have done the right things to reduce the vulnerablity of our respective families from the in coming chaos.

What then? That is the question!

Kind Regards

Dr Bang