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THE "War on Drugs" Thread (merged)

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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 18:42:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'N')ever heard of it. What is it?


PCP. It doesn't turn you into a Republican, but it does turn you into an a-hole.

I threw a guy off a balcony once when I was smoking it. Then I threw all my houseplants off the same balcony because they made me angry. Mmmm. Good times.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 18:52:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('billg', '"')High" is usually a word one applies to pot, not the psychedelics.


I did not know that. When I did shrooms, LSD, cocaine, and heroin we always just called it "getting high". Well, for phencyclidine we did say "getting wet".

My experience? I've smoked, ate, drank, snorted, and injected every drug I ever heard about. I've gotten as high as a you can get and still remain concious.

One thing I did notice in all those years was that anybody who saw God or experienced profound revelations while they were high couldn't tell you anything useful about them when they weren't high.


You expected different results, so that's what you got. You wanted to get 'high' without spiritual quest. Not everyone can find the door, the key to the kingdom, the porthole. And even if they can they must be able to make sense of the images.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 18:54:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('da23', 'I')MHO you can learn a lot from some drugs.


If by "learn" you mean gain profound insight and new levels of intellectual understanding. No. You can't.

If by "learn" you mean get really fuggin high, then yes, that is possible.


Maybe YOU can't. :razz:
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby Carlhole » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 19:19:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'N')ever heard of it. What is it?


PCP. It doesn't turn you into a Republican, but it does turn you into an a-hole.

I threw a guy off a balcony once when I was smoking it. Then I threw all my houseplants off the same balcony because they made me angry. Mmmm. Good times.


Oh, I never heard PCP's real chemical name. I saw people in high school do some pretty strange shitt on that stuff. I've heard people rave about Ketamine, too. But I've never strayed into those kinds of things. I've heard that many people have experienced the same hallucinations on K.

Have you ever read "Phenethylamines I Have Known And Loved: A Chemical Love Story" by Alexander and Ann Shulgin?

It's basically a laboratory cookbook that will allow a someone with, say, a 2-year academic credential in chemistry or lab practice to whip up batches of cool plant entheogens and hallucinogenic chemicals. There's a follow-up book called "Tryptamines i Have Known And Loved: The Chemistry Continues which includes the recipe for Acid.

Seems interesting. But when you read a book like that, you immediately feel like trying to jump in with cold laboratory skills to try your hand at mixing up a batch LSD or something.

The recipe for LSD seems NOT prohibitively complicated but requires extreme care. And the whole endeavour would be made much simpler if you can get your hands on a batch of already-made good lysergic acid. I think you can find sources of it in Amsterdam that will send some to you in the mail. Or at least, they claim they will and they seem somewhat trustworthy. One of those Amsterdam guys sent me some hash in the mail - I had sent him a chunk of cash in an envelope that he could have just kept if he wanted to - but he came through for me.

...and, also, if you can get ahold of decent lab equipment or if you can fabricate your own equipment pretty well. With LSD, you have to be able to combine chemicals within a pretty good vacuum. Not only are things like lysergic acid controlled, but also, certain types of lab equipment are controlled as well.

I always thought LSD was not too terribly dangerous and quite an interesting, worthwhile experience. Not something you would want to overdo though...

But I quit looking for it years and years ago because most of the acid out there is just horrible stuff. I got the impression that the younger generation did not even KNOW why LSD had been in such high regard in the 60's, because the quality on the streets sucks so farking bad.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 19:43:55

Once at a party, they laced the beer with LSD. I can still remember floating above by body that night. Other than that, I've never done that trip. I bet Pink Floyd sounds pretty good, also I heard listening to Hendrix is total max trippen on acid.

Purple Haze........... :cool:
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby Carlhole » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 21:06:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'O')nce at a party, they laced the beer with LSD. I can still remember floating above by body that night. Other than that, I've never done that trip. I bet Pink Floyd sounds pretty good, also I heard listening to Hendrix is total max trippen on acid.

Purple Haze........... :cool:


Actually, the way The Moody Blues recorded their songs seemed almost deliberately engineered to be compatible with an acid trip. Other snippets of pieces from the 70's used the same effect - for example "I Tripped To The Fair" by Renaissance.

But sure, no self-respecting hop-head would scratch Electric Ladyland.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 22:55:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'O')h, I never heard PCP's real chemical name. I saw people in high school do some pretty strange shitt on that stuff. I've heard people rave about Ketamine, too.


PCP is a very, very ugly drug. 15 years ago I quit using drugs except alcohol and the occasional synthetic opiate for pain tolerance when I'm doing intense manual labor around my place.

I don't know if PCP is even still available, but it's not even worth trying. The effect is like if you did a gram of crank and drank a liter of vodka while on LSD.

You get the colors and awe of LSD, but the rage and intensity of crank, combined with the "don't give a shyte" of vodka. Blyech. It's a recipe for spending the night in city jail and cutting a check for $2,000 to some scumbag lawyer. The only good thing about it is that it lasts for like 10 hours.

Long story short, drugs are like putting Orajell on a rotten tooth. They mask the symptoms (boredom, neurosis, pain, ) but the don't correct the fundamental problem.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TWilliam » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 03:16:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'I') don't know if PCP is even still available, but it's not even worth trying. The effect is like if you did a gram of crank and drank a liter of vodka while on LSD.

You get the colors and awe of LSD, but the rage and intensity of crank, combined with the "don't give a shyte" of vodka.


Interesting. It was nothing like that the few times I tried it. The most noticeable effect that I remember was a sense of walking ten feet above the ground, coupled with a pretty giddy euphoria. Maybe it's because I was judicious in my use... [smilie=dontknow.gif]

But then, I'd always been pretty judicious, particularly when testing substances I hadn't previously used. Never felt 'rage' on crank either, tho' I found the intense mental focus it engendered pretty fascinating. Coke wasn't all that impressive; seemed odd to me that people got so enthralled by it.

LSD and 'shrooms are both in a class distinctly their own (and incidentally, yes, LSD was widely utilized by psychiatrists in the 50s). Every time I'd done them I was always careful of 'set & setting', since I was aware of how profound their influence could be upon the experience. Never got into needles or the narcotics, apart from smoking opium a few times. It was pleasant enough, but I was cautious about not allowing myself to become 'hooked'.

About the only drug I've found to be unpleasant is alcohol. That tends to bring out anger and aggressiveness I've noticed. Don't much care for the after-effects either...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'L')ong story short, drugs are like putting Orajell on a rotten tooth. They mask the symptoms (boredom, neurosis, pain, ) but the don't correct the fundamental problem.

Those may have been your reasons for using them, but they are by no means universal...
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 10:27:36

Just stick to a little (top shelf) weed now and then. Very benign.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 16:01:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'L')ong story short, drugs are like putting Orajell on a rotten tooth. They mask the symptoms (boredom, neurosis, pain, ) but the don't correct the fundamental problem.

Those may have been your reasons for using them, but they are by no means universal...


I argue that they are universal.

I believe people universally desire intellectual clarity and emotional happiness.

They resort to chemical brain alterations which mimic such a state when they are unable to acheive it by means of rational exploration and self-understanding.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 16:43:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'L')ong story short, drugs are like putting Orajell on a rotten tooth. They mask the symptoms (boredom, neurosis, pain, ) but the don't correct the fundamental problem.

Those may have been your reasons for using them, but they are by no means universal...


I argue that they are universal.

I believe people universally desire intellectual clarity and emotional happiness.

They resort to chemical brain alterations which mimic such a state when they are unable to acheive it by means of rational exploration and self-understanding.


Rational?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]NOTICE how drugs that stimulate the first four circuits, which are already activated, tend to be dangerously addictive, roughly ordered ascending from the first circuit.

To activate the first brain take an opiate. Mother Opium and Sister Morphine bring you down to cellular intelligence, bio-survival passivity, the floating consciousness of the newborn. (This is why Freudians identify opiate addiction with the desire to return to infancy.)
To activate the second tunnel-reality, take an abundant quantity of alcohol. Vertebrate territorial patterns and mammalian emotional politics immediately appear when the booze flows, as Thomas Nashe intuitively realized when he characterized the various alcohol states by animal labels: "ass drunk," "goat drunk," "swine drunk," "bear drunk," etc.

To activate the third circuit, try coffee or tea, a high-protein diet, speed or cocaine.

The specific neurotransmitter for circuit four has not been synthesized yet, but it is generated by the glands after pubescence and flows volcanically through the bloodstreams of adolescents.

NONE OF THESE TERRESTRIAL DRUGS CHANGE BASIC BIOCHEMICAL IMPRINTS. The behaviors which they trigger are those which were wired into the nervous system during the first stages of imprint vulnerability. The circuit II drunk exhibits the emotional games or cons learned from parents in infancy. The circuit III "mind" never gets beyond the permutations and combinations of those tunnel-realities originally imprinted, or abstractions associated with the imprints through later conditioning. And so forth.


Eight Circuits of Consciousness
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby yeahbut » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 18:45:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'L')ong story short, drugs are like putting Orajell on a rotten tooth. They mask the symptoms (boredom, neurosis, pain, ) but the don't correct the fundamental problem.

Those may have been your reasons for using them, but they are by no means universal...


I argue that they are universal.

I believe people universally desire intellectual clarity and emotional happiness.

They resort to chemical brain alterations which mimic such a state when they are unable to acheive it by means of rational exploration and self-understanding.


Trying to apply universal rules to human motivation is a pointless activity. Reasons for taking drugs are as diverse as humans themselves, as are the effects of the drugs consumed, which vary enormously from person to person. Example: as TW points out, you describe the "rage" associated with speed as an assumed universal characteristic of this drug, but of course it isn't- it's what you experienced on it. I never felt such a sensation when I took speed(many years ago), I felt clear and focussed and incredibly energised, but certainly not rage. If anything I felt an enhanced empathy for, and interest in, other people. On the other hand I remember talking to a guy at a party who told me he tried crystal meth once, and started having violent sexual fantasies about the girl he was with, who was one of his oldest friends(he had an abusive childhood and tough teenage years). I know others who've tried this (highly addictive) drug and enjoyed it tremendously. I had a girlfriend in London who got very feisty and stroppy on the supposed "love drug" E, look out any sweaty strangers trying to give her a hug on the dancefloor! Most people can smoke some pot, enjoy it, and not have it take over their lives, but I've seen a couple of guys totally in it's thrall. And of course there is massively broad range of responses to alcohol, from those who have a good laugh and a good time, to those who inflict misery on themselves and others.

I'm assuming from your posts that drug-taking caused you a lot of problems, and you spent some time getting 'clean', as they say. If that's so, I'm sorry to hear it, but you mustn't assume this gives you insight into everyone else who took, or takes, drugs. It just doesn't. A large percentage of my friends took drugs at times in their twenties and even thirties, and most just had a really good time doing it. None of us had to 'clean up', we just slowly stopped doing them as we got older and busier with more responsibilities. Even the one guy who in my judgemental opinion smokes too much pot has a family, house, job etc. Drugs can cause all sorts of problems for people, no doubt, but then again they can just be fun and life-enhancing. Motivations for taking drugs, and their effects, are as diverse as the humans who use them.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 01:29:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'T')rying to apply universal rules to human motivation is a pointless activity. Reasons for taking drugs are as diverse as humans themselves, as are the effects of the drugs consumed, which vary enormously from person to person. Example: as TW points out, you describe the "rage" associated with speed as an assumed universal characteristic of this drug, but of course it isn't- it's what you experienced on it. I never felt such a sensation when I took speed(many years ago), I felt clear and focussed and incredibly energised, but certainly not rage. If anything I felt an enhanced empathy for, and interest in, other people. On the other hand I remember talking to a guy at a party who told me he tried crystal meth once, and started having violent sexual fantasies about the girl he was with, who was one of his oldest friends(he had an abusive childhood and tough teenage years). I know others who've tried this (highly addictive) drug and enjoyed it tremendously. I had a girlfriend in London who got very feisty and stroppy on the supposed "love drug" E, look out any sweaty strangers trying to give her a hug on the dancefloor! Most people can smoke some pot, enjoy it, and not have it take over their lives, but I've seen a couple of guys totally in it's thrall. And of course there is massively broad range of responses to alcohol, from those who have a good laugh and a good time, to those who inflict misery on themselves and others.

I'm assuming from your posts that drug-taking caused you a lot of problems, and you spent some time getting 'clean', as they say. If that's so, I'm sorry to hear it, but you mustn't assume this gives you insight into everyone else who took, or takes, drugs. It just doesn't. A large percentage of my friends took drugs at times in their twenties and even thirties, and most just had a really good time doing it. None of us had to 'clean up', we just slowly stopped doing them as we got older and busier with more responsibilities. Even the one guy who in my judgemental opinion smokes too much pot has a family, house, job etc. Drugs can cause all sorts of problems for people, no doubt, but then again they can just be fun and life-enhancing. Motivations for taking drugs, and their effects, are as diverse as the humans who use them.


+1

While there may be certain physiological effects that are identical for everyone who takes a specific drug, the psychological effects, the interpretations of those effects, are absolutely unique. Since we are talking about substances that effect consciousness itself, and since each of us is a unique conscious individual, how we experience those effects will likewise be unique.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 11:20:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'T')rying to apply universal rules to human motivation is a pointless activity. Reasons for taking drugs are as diverse as humans themselves


Do you believe that most people desire intellectual clarity and emotional happiness?
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 11:38:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'T')rying to apply universal rules to human motivation is a pointless activity. Reasons for taking drugs are as diverse as humans themselves


Do you believe that most people desire intellectual clarity and emotional happiness?


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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 18:33:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'T')rying to apply universal rules to human motivation is a pointless activity. Reasons for taking drugs are as diverse as humans themselves


Do you believe that most people desire intellectual clarity and emotional happiness?


Well, if behavior is any indication, then I would have to say no to the 'intellectual clarity' part anyway. I've known far too many people who actively resist opportunities to increase their understanding. Interestingly, I note that these same people also tend to be anti-drug...

ANYway... here's a pretty interesting documentary on the history of LSD (in nine parts):

LSD - The Beyond Within

Oh, a bit of LSD trivia: Hall-of-Famer Dock Ellis's June 12th, 1970 no-hitter for the Pittsburgh Pirates against the Padres was thrown while tripping on three hits of LSD...
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby yeahbut » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 21:21:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'T')rying to apply universal rules to human motivation is a pointless activity. Reasons for taking drugs are as diverse as humans themselves


Do you believe that most people desire intellectual clarity and emotional happiness?


I don't know what most people desire; as Ludi would say, I don't know most people. :) I suppose one could try to determine people's desires by observing their actions(possibly a more accurate representation of people's true desires than what they say), in which case one could come to any number of conclusions. As TW says, it's hard to discern the urge for intellectual clarity in the population at large.

In any case, as I tried(and obviously failed) to get across in my previous post, I do not consider all, or even most, drug-taking to be an expression of peoples deepest desires. It can be motivated by any number of things- making a good night out even better, a desire for pleasure, or numbness, or euphoria, or oblivion. An urge to explore ones own mind, or feel indestructible, or connect with other people. A wish to relax, or slow down, or speed up, or intensify.

Now you may wish to shoe-horn these and all other reasons for drug consumption into your two categories, but I don't know why. Such reductionism doesn't help to us to see the truth of the matter, IMO.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby shakespear1 » Sun 21 Dec 2008, 06:38:28

Just a quick question: Did James Baker (former secretary of State) overdose on drugs once? Or is it another famous secretary in gov.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Sun 21 Dec 2008, 11:39:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'N')ow you may wish to shoe-horn these and all other reasons for drug consumption into your two categories, but I don't know why. Such reductionism doesn't help to us to see the truth of the matter, IMO.


It totally does help us see the truth of the matter.

I submit that people take drugs for only three reasons:

1. For medical problems such as physical pain or psychosis.

2. To experience emotional happiness.

3. To experience altered intellectual functioning.

The only rational reason for taking drugs is reason number one.
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Re: Wars on Drugs

Unread postby TWilliam » Sun 21 Dec 2008, 14:51:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'I') submit that people take drugs for only three reasons:

1. For medical problems such as physical pain or psychosis.

2. To experience emotional happiness.

3. To experience altered intellectual functioning.


I submit three more at minimum:

4. To enhance quality of life.

5. To gain personal insight.

6. To relieve stress.

Incidentally, drug-taking is not just some human affectation. Numerous studies have found that many animals also deliberately seek out and imbibe various forms of intoxicants. Catnip, anyone? Or how 'bout locoweed? Or any number of animals that get fall-down drunk on fermented fruit?
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