[Maddog78]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')I live where Salmon were caught. It is sad to see them disappear. It is because of land, stream, river, and ocean abuse.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'o')k but I'm not talking to most of the world, but I'm talking to 1st worlders who are reading this thread so is anyone "talking" on the Net.

[TWilliam]

I recommend Lierre Keith's The Vegetarian Myth to anyone still operating under one or more of the delusions that veganism is a) healthier, b) 'eco-friendlier' or c) 'more ethical'. Pretty much nails every one of those coffins firmly shut...

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'I') recommend Lierre Keith's The Vegetarian Myth to anyone still operating under one or more of the delusions that veganism is a) healthier, b) 'eco-friendlier' or c) 'more ethical'. Pretty much nails every one of those coffins firmly shut...

[eastbay]

Thanks Narz. Good find!

I checked the Keith book out from the local library and read it. It's simply a cleverly written defense of her carnivore diet. There are countless ways to counter the generally wild exaggerations (as are most pro-carnivore claims) made in her book and this summary is about as good as it gets.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')hanks Narz. Good find!

I checked the Keith book out from the local library and read it. It's simply a cleverly written defense of her carnivore diet. There are countless ways to counter the generally wild exaggerations (as are most pro-carnivore claims) made in her book and this summary is about as good as it gets.

[eastbay]

I said it countered the claims made in her book, which it does ... at least many of the key claims. I didn't say it was a critique of her book. Online one can easily find many critiques of her book. I know full well from personal experience that her book is 99% hogwash. There are countless vegans and vegetarians living healthy and full lives. To claim this mode of diet is unhealthy and as environmentally harmful as factory animal production is patently false. There is just no comparison.

The argument is meaningless, however, because as energy costs escalate we'll all be lucky to have anything to eat. And factory farm meat will be a distant memory.

[vtsnowedin]

A very silly discussion for a site devoted to the consequences of Peak Oil. Give it a few years and anyone that was concerned about what food choices to make will have shifted to being concerned about getting enough food to get him or her (and their family) through the coming winter and they will take the Will Rogers approach. 'Never met a calorie they didn't eat.' Will you eat meat? of course you will because a walking beef is a handy way to convert and store grass and leaves that you can't eat into fat and protein calories that you can butcher and consume mid to late winter when the garden and the root cellar hold little or nothing. You will either get over this vegan nonsense very quickly or die very quickly, take your pick.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'A') very silly discussion for a site devoted to the consequences of Peak Oil. Give it a few years and anyone that was concerned about what food choices to make will have shifted to being concerned about getting enough food to get him or her (and their family) through the coming winter and they will take the Will Rogers approach. 'Never met a calorie they didn't eat.' Will you eat meat? of course you will because a walking beef is a handy way to convert and store grass and leaves that you can't eat into fat and protein calories that you can butcher and consume mid to late winter when the garden and the root cellar hold little or nothing. You will either get over this vegan nonsense very quickly or die very quickly, take your pick.

[jedrider]

Is being Vegan cardiovascularly sound??

Despite all those AMA sudies about fat intake versus frequency of stroke, the information I got from 'The Rave Diet' for instance:

Autopsies before the modern diet became prevalent show little arterioclerosis in common people for instance. So what is the difference between then and now?? The food we eat and the amount of exercise we get!

My interpretation is that the modern diet is so out-of-kilter as to be virtually deadly. I do see relatively thin people that walk a lot live to an old age. There are exceptions such as my mom, who was not especially thin, didn't try to eat a healthful diet and lived to 90. (I didn't prove the point, I guess!)

I like the idea of historical and population analyses than of studies with controls that achieve negative results but typically look at a very narrowly defined situation which may have limited application such as if you do everything unhealthful but eat less saturated fat, it won't make a difference!! That I can believe

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I') said it countered the claims made in her book, which it does ... at least many of the key claims. I didn't say it was a critique of her book.

[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'I')'d like to mention here that I think we can both agree that factory farming in general is not a particularly 'good' thing, whether of animals or plants. Any of us who've been on this site for any length of time --I would think-- certainly understand that such methods are unsustainable.

That being the case, my tendency would be to look for a way of eating that is sustainable. Traditional farm poly-cultures have lasted centuries with virtually zero need for external inputs. Livestock are an indispensable component of those farms, including their recycling back into the soil via our consumption of them and their produce. People that live within such poly-cultures tend to be robust, long-lived and disease-resistant.

That is the omnivorous diet which, as far as I can discern, is superior to veganism. I for one do not claim the Standard American Diet to be so...

[SeaGypsy]

A considerable factor in upcoming bottlenecking of population is likely to be the inclination and knowlege factor besides actual carrying capacity.
Most spiels about carrying capacity ignore the fact that for some time now we have been breeding away from basic agrarian ability/ proclivity.

The assumption that actual carrying capacity will be the central determining factor in post die off population assumes vast organisation and reallocation of resources in a timely fashion. Given the tendency towards militarisation it seems more likely resources will be missdirected and will fail to support a 'soft landing' position; wherein actual carrying capacity becomes the key objective.

Diet wise it seems to be a good idea to learn to live off what you can grow or at least what grows locally; thus smoothing your own possible post bottleneck landing whilst feeling good about what you do where you are.

Every inhabitable area has it's ideal mix of farmable crops and rotations.
In hard mountain country it may be that you have to eat a lot of goat products and fruits/ vegetables become a delicacy. It may also be that you find like most subsistence farmers, meat is to be regarded as a relative luxury and used sparingly, along with dairy foods. My long term diet largely consists of fish and seaweed, along with root vegetables and coconuts.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I') wonder what percentage of humanity feeds itself under farm poly-culture food production? I think it's a tiny number most likely considerably less than one percent and maybe less than point one percent. And this understanding then logically moves the discussion along into determining how many humans can the earth support under poly-culture food production. I bet it's considerably less than 7 billion. And as the population descends, as it certainly will, the dietary moral high road will be thinly travelled and few will care where their food originates.

[billg]

it's interesting that the innovator of the Loving Hut concept, Ching Hai, is hugely involved with educating the public about the risks of global warming...and she doesn't hold anything back...one the videos produced on Supreme Master TV deals with the issue of potentially devastating release of methane from land-based and submarine permafrost. another video features expert Jeffrey Smith talking about the dangers of genetically modified food. it may be a little irritating that she calls herself a Supreme Master, but it appears that she walks her talk better than most self-described masters.

Supreme Master Ching Hai's signature slogan from her website
http://www.godsdirectcontact.org/ reads...
From Crisis to Peace...The Organic Vegan Way is the Answer.

Environmental education videos from Ching Hai:
http://suprememastertv.com/SOS/

127 branches of Loving Hut worldwide and still spreading...that's impact.

The restaurant:
http://www.lovinghut.us/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')oving Hut is created with a vision that all beings could live in peace, love and harmony with each other and the planet. Loving Hut chain restaurants are newly opening around the world. It is an invitation to gourmet cuisine made with wholesome vegan ingredients, offering an accessible starting point for those making the noble transition to a plant-based diet.

Your local Loving Hut is one of the many individually family owned restaurants. Loving Hut Restaurants are the fastest growing International vegan fast food chain in the world with branches from the West Coast in California to the East Coast of New York City. Internationally, branches are currently open in Formosa (Taiwan), Au Lac (Vietnam), Singapore, Indonesia, Tokyo and Hong Kong. More branches will be opening in various locations all around the world in the coming months.

As more and more people around the world adopt a plant based diet, Loving Hut is a beacon of light for an alternative way of living. It’s healthier, it’s compassionate, it’s peaceful and it’s the only way to a sustainable planet.

Be Veg Go Green 2 Save the Planet!

FAQ
Frequestly asked Questions & Answers

Q: Why are the menus different at every Loving Hut?
A: Every city is unique and thus we believe in giving our Loving Huts' chefs the freedom to create great local dishes and entrees. We want to bring out the best of all cultures and show that vegan dishes are not only healthy but great tasting too.

Q: How is your food so affordable?
A: The vegan diet is great for environment, health and shows compassion for all lives. Unfortunately, healthy choices by itself is not good enough. We recognized that the food must also be affordable for it to be everyone's food of choice.

Q: How is Supreme Master Ching Hai involved?
A: Supreme Master Ching Hai is the innovator for Loving Hut vegan concept. She wants to help the world with a more compassionate and noble way of living by providing easy access to great vegan food all over the world.