[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '
')I have no such strong emotions about it, but I will continue to point out the overwhelming evidence that mostly most people will have to eat less meat if we even want some slight chance of having a world where: 1) everyone is adequately fed, and 2) we don't exacerbate already out of control global warming any more than we need to to accomplish #1.

If people can discuss such things without flying into wild accusations or without putting words in my mouth, I would appreciated it.

[SeaGypsy]

Water tarrifs would do it. There's thousands of gallons embedded in a steak.

[dissident]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'W')ater tarrifs would do it. There's thousands of gallons embedded in a steak.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dissident', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'W')ater tarrifs would do it. There's thousands of gallons embedded in a steak.

[dohboi]

Thanks for the good points, os and sg. and for the measured and thoughtful responses from dis and vt.

Maybe, just maybe, we could actually figure something out this way.

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'W')ater tarrifs would do it. There's thousands of gallons embedded in a steak.

[dohboi]

I'm not sure how many cattle are exclusively watered from rain-fed dams.

But most of the cattle I see are in the West and western Midwest, where small wooden windmills for pumping water into cattle troughs used to be ubiquitous before rural electrification replaced most of them.

Wherever the water came from, though, that's water that can't be used for other things.

[dohboi]

http://grist.org/food/china-just-said-w ... less-meat/

China just said what the U.S. never has: Eat less meat

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')obody in the United States paid much attention when the Chinese government released new dietary guidelines earlier this month. But hidden within them is a provision that could slash carbon emissions from livestock, according to the group Climate Nexus citing a forthcoming report from WildAid.

China is saying something simple and straightforward, something that the U.S. government has never been able to bring itself to say: Eat less meat.

If 1.3 billion Chinese people follow the guidelines and eat just 200 grams of meat and eggs a day — instead of increasing their meat consumption as expected — it would prevent a lot of greenhouse gas from entering the atmosphere. And when we say “a lot” we mean on the order of 1.5 percent of global emissions. That’s like zeroing out Mexico’s carbon emissions every year.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'h')ttp://grist.org/food/china-just-said-what-the-u-s-never-has-eat-less-meat/

China just said what the U.S. never has: Eat less meat

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')obody in the United States paid much attention when the Chinese government released new dietary guidelines earlier this month. But hidden within them is a provision that could slash carbon emissions from livestock, according to the group Climate Nexus citing a forthcoming report from WildAid.

China is saying something simple and straightforward, something that the U.S. government has never been able to bring itself to say: Eat less meat.

If 1.3 billion Chinese people follow the guidelines and eat just 200 grams of meat and eggs a day — instead of increasing their meat consumption as expected — it would prevent a lot of greenhouse gas from entering the atmosphere. And when we say “a lot” we mean on the order of 1.5 percent of global emissions. That’s like zeroing out Mexico’s carbon emissions every year.

[dohboi]

I think the point is to stabilize meat consumption, rather than having it keep growing, as it now is, til it reaches or exceeds US or Denmark levels.

I wonder if these 'goals' will eventually involve rationing.

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'I')'m not sure how many cattle are exclusively watered from rain-fed dams.

But most of the cattle I see are in the West and western Midwest, where small wooden windmills for pumping water into cattle troughs used to be ubiquitous before rural electrification replaced most of them.

Wherever the water came from, though, that's water that can't be used for other things.

[Tanada]

Reality is telling everyone to eat Vegan is just a forlorn attempt to support 7,10, heck maybe 18 billion humans on this dusty world we call home. At the most if everyone switched today it might buy 20 years, which in the grand scheme of things proves just how pointless it is.

[dohboi]

Yup, saving the world is pretty much a forlorn attempt. But for some reason I just can't stop tryin'!

And it wouldn't actually require everyone (or I believe, anyone) to go totally vegan. The main point is to cut down drastically on meat and dairy consumption and especially industrial beef. If people have some ideas on how to accomplish this, I'm all ears.

(Grass fed has its own problems, including often degrading land and the necessity to drive out native carnivors, in the US anyway. Maybe they've figured out exactly how to do perfect, no input, no harm livestock raising in OZ--I haven't looked into it much lately. If so, good on them. It still doesn't relate much to what the rest of the world can or should do. Overgrazing is a big problem in may places--essentially mining the soil. And in any case, there just isn't enough grazing land in the world to supply everyone on earth with an American level of meat consumption.)

This pieces from a few years ago seems to contradict the one I just cited: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/opini ... .html?_r=0

It seems to me that cattle could be bred or genetically altered so as not to emit so much methane. Or maybe some kind of supplement to alter their stomach bacteria? I think they have been doing some research in this direction on sheep in New Zealand, but I haven't kept up with it.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', ' ')Overgrazing is a big problem in may places--essentially mining the soil.

[dohboi]

"You're not an evil rancher deliberately..."

No, you're just part of an evil system, as are we all.

Good description of the dilemma.

[SeaGypsy]

Uptake of solar bores in monsoonal & artesian inland Australia has been slow, my guess is less than 2% of bores are solar pulled, windmills aren't reliable on their own & the standard for over 50 years has been to attach a diesel backup pump to each windmill & send a bore runner around every few days to check on water levels. Technology is making remote checking more common, a massive time saver, as high tech traps are a massive loss saver through 'pest' management. Either way, rainfall is still required for grazing. Graziers in the vast Northern Territory & bordering inland States are able to easily gather stock & truck them using helicopters & road trains, can take advantage of optimum conditions by dealing across climate regions. As a near vegan who likes cows enough to not eat them, I have to admit there are few other worthwhile crops in vast marginal areas, cows are a goldmine in Australia.

[dohboi]

"Overgrazing is one of the main pressures on biodiversity in Australia.

Grazing and various agricultural improvement strategies have modified vast areas of grasslands and open grassy woodlands. In temperate ecosystems, less than 2% of the original grasslands remain.

Moreover, overgrazing promotes desertification and erosion, and is also seen as one cause of the spread of invasive plants."

http://wwf.panda.org/who_we_are/wwf_off ... australia/

[SeaGypsy]

Only Brazil clears more land than Australia. The ag scene is highly variable though these days with more producers doing much better systems, others still effectively strip mining soil.

[Shaved Monkey]

Modern agriculture be it organic or chemical is strip mining.
Inputs go in, vegetables go out, soil gets depleted.
You need animals in the loop to fertilise the soil.
You eat the old and the excess males to keep them in check.

My sisters (and uncles and cousins )cattle properties without animals would just be bush(they where cleared nearly a century ago) which is nice but now they provide lots of protein with minimal inputs for humans now, taking strain of precious resources that would be required to replace that protein with agriculture.

[dohboi]

"Only Brazil clears more land than Australia."

Interesting. I hadn't heard that comparison before.

"You need animals in the loop to fertilise the soil."

Right.

And humans are, of course, animals that can poop into the loop!

(though I hope they don't start eating 'old and excess males' very soon, or I'll definitely be in the soup! )