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THE Topic of Abortion Thread (merged)
Re: Abortion Question?
by smallpoxgirl » Sun 25 Mar 2007, 15:25:44
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') think Aaron, if you don't mind me interjecting here, a key abortion issue is determining if a being is suffering through the process. According to SPG, pain receptors don't start to form in the brain until, if I remember correctly, 20 weeks.
Suffering is a very complicated subject. What is the societal role of suffering? What is the relationship between suffering and pain? Is suffering universally a bad thing? These questions lead to complicated metaphysical discussions.
The pathways in the brain that carry pain sensation do not begin to form until 20-22 weeks. That's begin. They continue to develop well into the first year of life. In general, we think of two components being necessary for pain to occur: 1. Functioning neural pathways to detect and process pain signals and convey them to the cortex. 2. An intact cerebral cortex that can interpret the signals and experience pain. There is a big discussion right now about fetal pain and how that relates to abortion both amongst legislatures and amongst abortion providers. The vast majority of abortions are done before 20 weeks. I think we can say quite conclusively in that group, that fetal pain is a non-issue. In the 20 weeks and above group, it's probably a non-issue as well because like I said the low oxygen environment pre-cludes wakefulness and induces a similar state to general anesthesia. We may, however, see a shift to using analgesics prior to post-20 week abortions "just to be sure."
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: Abortion Question?
by NEOPO » Sun 25 Mar 2007, 15:32:05
Good points TB.
Sounds like an anti abortion conspiracy!
<smiles and wrings his hands with delight>
Some bitch about this but not a peep about the resource war and all of its many guises.
<sits his drink down on a flaming coffeetable>
Then there is the spectre of future hard choices that anyone who understands PO and sustainable limits should know will have to be made.
I repeat - will have to be made.
In essence, in some distant future people are going to have to die because more abortions did not occur...doh!!!
<hands the elephant in the room a peanut>
Some people are simply not thinking this matter through relevant to our current precarious predicament and that would apply to both/all camps.
Its alittle scary when you do yet damn if I can deny what I see when I do.
How bout you?
Have you really thought this through?
Sam you are....
And no this isnt "dark side" mentality its reality mentality.
I dont want to have to make these choices and if I can avoid it I will yet for some reason I get the funny feeling that every action I make is in some way an agreeance or disagreeance with the status quo which will collectively be forced to make these hard choices one day.
Few wish to believe that by eating bananas from some third world country they inadvertantly support the local politician who was empowered by the local drug lord who enslaves the local population and forces them to vote for said politician and plant coca, poppy etc etc which in turn is sold to americans/world and results in drug addicted prostitutes (probably the oldest profession) running amuck and ultimately some story on Faux news about a woman who was turned down after her 12th abortion.
Nope, cause we like bananas
Sounds like an anti abortion conspiracy!
<smiles and wrings his hands with delight>
Some bitch about this but not a peep about the resource war and all of its many guises.
<sits his drink down on a flaming coffeetable>
Then there is the spectre of future hard choices that anyone who understands PO and sustainable limits should know will have to be made.
I repeat - will have to be made.
In essence, in some distant future people are going to have to die because more abortions did not occur...doh!!!
<hands the elephant in the room a peanut>
Some people are simply not thinking this matter through relevant to our current precarious predicament and that would apply to both/all camps.
Its alittle scary when you do yet damn if I can deny what I see when I do.
How bout you?
Have you really thought this through?
Sam you are....
And no this isnt "dark side" mentality its reality mentality.
I dont want to have to make these choices and if I can avoid it I will yet for some reason I get the funny feeling that every action I make is in some way an agreeance or disagreeance with the status quo which will collectively be forced to make these hard choices one day.
Few wish to believe that by eating bananas from some third world country they inadvertantly support the local politician who was empowered by the local drug lord who enslaves the local population and forces them to vote for said politician and plant coca, poppy etc etc which in turn is sold to americans/world and results in drug addicted prostitutes (probably the oldest profession) running amuck and ultimately some story on Faux news about a woman who was turned down after her 12th abortion.
Nope, cause we like bananas
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: Abortion Question?
by threadbear » Sun 25 Mar 2007, 19:56:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') think Aaron, if you don't mind me interjecting here, a key abortion issue is determining if a being is suffering through the process. According to SPG, pain receptors don't start to form in the brain until, if I remember correctly, 20 weeks.
Suffering is a very complicated subject. What is the societal role of suffering? What is the relationship between suffering and pain? Is suffering universally a bad thing? These questions lead to complicated metaphysical discussions.
The pathways in the brain that carry pain sensation do not begin to form until 20-22 weeks. That's begin. They continue to develop well into the first year of life. In general, we think of two components being necessary for pain to occur: 1. Functioning neural pathways to detect and process pain signals and convey them to the cortex. 2. An intact cerebral cortex that can interpret the signals and experience pain. There is a big discussion right now about fetal pain and how that relates to abortion both amongst legislatures and amongst abortion providers. The vast majority of abortions are done before 20 weeks. I think we can say quite conclusively in that group, that fetal pain is a non-issue. In the 20 weeks and above group, it's probably a non-issue as well because like I said the low oxygen environment pre-cludes wakefulness and induces a similar state to general anesthesia. We may, however, see a shift to using analgesics prior to post-20 week abortions "just to be sure."
Interesting. Thanks for the input. It hasn't been until just recently that premature babies were thought to feel pain, but they obviously do, and I've read that they are actually susceptible to a pain sensitivity syndrome, due to being poked prodded and intubated, repetetively after delivery.
When I was a month old, I had an operation to remove a couple of benign subcutaneous growths on my head. I still have the scars. The one on my hair line is a whopper, so it involved more than just a little knick with a scalpel. It was done without any freezing or anasthesia whatsoever, which completely freaked my mother out. She could hear me screaming bloody murder, from the hallway.
The common thinking at that time, was that full term infants of one month of age didn't feel pain either.
Some people to this day, don't think animals feel pain. They have "aversion reactions".
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threadbear - Expert
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Re: Abortion Question?
by threadbear » Sun 25 Mar 2007, 20:02:48
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'G')ood points TB.
Sounds like an anti abortion conspiracy!
<smiles and wrings his hands with delight>
Some bitch about this but not a peep about the resource war and all of its many guises.
<sits his drink down on a flaming coffeetable>
Then there is the spectre of future hard choices that anyone who understands PO and sustainable limits should know will have to be made.
I repeat - will have to be made.
In essence, in some distant future people are going to have to die because more abortions did not occur...doh!!!
<hands the elephant in the room a peanut>
[img]http://www.bbc.co.uk/slink/images/255x143/girl_banana.jpg[/i
mg]
Sounds like an anti abortion conspiracy!
<smiles and wrings his hands with delight>
Some bitch about this but not a peep about the resource war and all of its many guises.
<sits his drink down on a flaming coffeetable>
Then there is the spectre of future hard choices that anyone who understands PO and sustainable limits should know will have to be made.
I repeat - will have to be made.
In essence, in some distant future people are going to have to die because more abortions did not occur...doh!!!
<hands the elephant in the room a peanut>
[img]http://www.bbc.co.uk/slink/images/255x143/girl_banana.jpg[/i
mg]
I agree, Neopo that abortion of an embryo beats retroactive abortion of the already born. And I have grave reservations about banana consumption too. It turns a delightful Sunday afternoon, downing a banana split, into a nightmare of chocolate covered remorse.
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threadbear - Expert
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