[MicroHydro]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', 'T')he superorganism that is the gov't, doesn't really care if you as an individual live or die in the coming Crisis ... it will be too involved in attempting it's own survival to worry about you (or your family).

[PhilBiker]

In other words humans are social animals. What else is new?

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')It is IMPOSSIBLE for any significant number of UNITS (people/groups) to reform the superorganism by changing those memes simply because those memes form the very foundation of the superorganism itself.

[Ludi]

Memes can be changed. Not easily, but they can.


The meme that the Earth is the center of the solar system was successfully changed, as was the meme that the Earth is flat.

During the Enlightenment, the meme that the Church had all the answers was changed.

Plenty of examples of meme change.

[EdF]

The ideas outlines are all well and good - adapting complexity science to an understanding of humans. But there's a bit missing, which is that the author ascribes power to complex organisms above and below that of the individual human, and states or implies that this somehow cancels out the power of the individual. The individual is also a complex whole, like a gene or a society. The laws of complexity science apply at all of these level (and more).

I suspect that the book is a bit polemical only because the author sees this revelation of the "super-organism" as a counter to an overemphasis on the level of the individual. But you can't have it both ways - the laws apply to their stated subject (complex wholes and their relationships to their parts, peers and containers at every level of organization), or they don't.

- Ed

[Teclo]

Memes seems just another way of describing collective consciousness, but in a way that doesn't sound too 'out there'

The idea that there's one truth negates that since it naturally supresses the 'consciousness' from asking questions and learning

Peak oil is a great example of this, since its not in any way abstract, its as real as you can get. But still collectively we are being restrained by someone telling us the opposite, basically lying to us (the archons)

I've studies the gnostic description of the world and its uncanny in its accuracy and relevance to our situation. According to them when our collective consciousness reaches a certain critical point we will simply rise above the mundane and render those who seek to control us powerless

Teclo

[Waterthrush]

The tension between the individual and society is THE great theme of western literature (perhaps of other literatures as well; I'm not well acquainted with them.) It is central to Greek tragedies such as "Antigone." It is present in Shakespeare (The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in OURSELVES...) It crops up again in humbler form, in Jane Eyre, "Besides, Jane, if the whole world was against you, and yet your own conscience said you were right, you would be obliged to follow your conscience." [I butchered that last one, I know!] In yet humbler form it shows up in popular literature - e.g. the Star Trek opposition of "the needs of the many vs. the needs of the few."

But, Kochevnik, the definition of society is MUCH broader than just government alone. It can be family or clan or religious group. It can be class in the Marxist sense. Indeed, government is often an ally to the individual as it has an interest in breaking down some of these other groups. I have found it to be so for me. Government paid for my education, which allowed me to escape a social environment that didn't value reading in women. Government laid down rules that have greatly eased the income disparity between women and men - I remember the days of separate job advertisements for women and men, with huge differences in salaries. Government has helped in making mortgage rules that allow women to buy houses - I well remember how a banker was very proud that he had actually lent money for the purchase of a house to a single woman professor I knew some 30 years ago - he viewed it as extraordinarily generous of him. My mother has told me that in her youth, single women had to board with widows.

My examples are drawn from women's experiences, but you get my drift. Government is not necessarily the "superorganism" you have in mind. Here in the US, it has been the guarantor of an individual's rights even when that individual is unpopular for some reason.

But, that tension between the individual and society is not particularly gnostic or strange. It is CENTRAL to our Western cultural identity. It has not been resolved, nor should it. That tension is creative and healthy and inspirational. It is normal.

Sorry for the long post!

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', 'T')he superorganism is best represented by the govt, because it is the govt of the society that uses force to make sure that the individuals in that society adhere to it's memes. You may view the govt as beneficial, but I assure you those who have not had the happy experiences that you have had do not.

My main point is simply that societies in the form of superorganisms compete for survival, and that forces that fight for the superorganisms survival trump those which fight for that of the individual. In the case of PO, I think you can be sure that most of the decsions that will be made in the next 2 decades will NOT be in your best interests.

[Barbara]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', 'A')fter all, if PO is severe, lack of energy will make it impossible for anyone more than a few hundred miles away to have any influence on our lives. Sounds like freedom to me.

[Jdelagado]

Lucifer rules, dude.

jdelagado

[NEOPO]

Philosophy is food for a hungry mind.

Very intersting Kochevnik.

All this wonderful understanding yet heres the nightly news in the HEALTH and ADDICTION section...
pot candy

Where do "they/we" clone these nazi's?!?!
I imagine somewhere in or near Utah....

uhm yeah - King Neopo would like to extend a mutually beneficial offer of trade alliance to Queen Barbara the 1st and to King Kochevnik

actually my group has decided to go with a "high council" or "elders" form of leadership for now and as hungry starving people join us we will "try" to convert to concensus vote.
I said "Try"!!

ohanian

After alot of reading I have come to believe that God, Satan and all these "deities" were originally intended and "given" to the masses as concepts only.
The masses wanted words to describe these concepts and then added or subtracted until they came up with something that they could grasp/use/abuse/control/manipulate.
The masses dont like worshipping concepts only

God:
Jad Havah - male and female - ancient hebrew
"and then they called upon the lord jehovah"
"and then they were called Jad havah"
Mankind to this point was primarily "hermaphroditic" according to my Theosophical studies.
Jad = male principle
From a "male dominated" culture you will 9999 times out of 10,000 get a male diety thus "jad" male became the principle of diety and when translated to english becomes "god".

The concept of "lucifer" or "light bringer" was another take on pandoras box.
The light/power which warms yet also annihilates.
Its the "golden ring" of the lords of the ring story etc etc.
Its the wish you wished for yet then got more then you bargained for type situation.
Its the eating of the "forbidden" fruit in genesis.
Its like giving an unsuspecting "victim" a hit of lsd without telling them first and then tell them you have a movie they need to see and put in yer copy of "end of suburbia" !!!! muahahahah do not try this at home!!!

In this day and age this principle could easily be seen as sweet light crude oil