[Mercani]

The universe is a closed and isolated system where 2nd law can definitely be applied.

The interesting fact is that, life is flourishing in this universe. Living beings as complex as humans exist. This complexity is clearly not a dis-ordered state. From a simpler point of view there are stars in the universe shining with millions of degrees of temperature and yet there are also vast emptiness in-between at close to absolute zero temperatures. There are local maximums of entropy and minimums of entropy scattered around although the total entropy must obey the 2nd law.

The 2nd law says nothing about "how" this local minimums and maximums are distributed. Why do they exist in their current state? These problems are not answered by thermodynamics.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mercani', 'T')he universe is a closed and isolated system where 2nd law can definitely be applied.

The interesting fact is that, life is flourishing in this universe. Living beings as complex as humans exist. This complexity is clearly not a dis-ordered state. From a simpler point of view there are stars in the universe shining with millions of degrees of temperature and yet there are also vast emptiness in-between at close to absolute zero temperatures. There are local maximums of entropy and minimums of entropy scattered around although the total entropy must obey the 2nd law.

The 2nd law says nothing about "how" this local minimums and maximums are distributed. Why do they exist in their current state? These problems are not answered by thermodynamics.

[BabyPeanut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BabyPeanut', 'T')he point is that evolution decreases entropy.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Lynn Margulis in her book Acquiring Genomes writes about the link between evolution and thermodynamics.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ife is one of a class of systems that organize in response to a gradient. . . All of these systems produce unexpectedly complex features. Temperature gradients produce highly organized fluids, octagonal convection currents called Benard cells. [other examples include tornados and chemical 'clocks'.] A crucial point here is that not only is life consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. . . but that complex systems reduce the gradients around them more effectively and quickly than would be the case were they not to exist.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BabyPeanut', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BabyPeanut', 'T')he point is that evolution decreases entropy.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Now this gradient reduction business would explain quite a lot of things. For instance, humor. Humor is an efficient way to reduce a psychological gradient, or tension, which is why we like it Or sex which reduces a biochemical gradient and why we like that, too. It's all so clear now, isn't it? In fact, the most effective way to reduce the psychological gradients within us is death which is why we ought to like that too. (Have at it DJ)

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')he argument basically states that life evovled as the most efficient way to dissipate the temperature gradient on Earth caused by the Sun. There it is: THE MEANING OF LIFE.

[PenultimateManStanding]

But of course, death as the ultimate personal gradient reducer is very selfish. We are obligated to each do our part in the Big Scheme of Things which is to pitch in and reduce that goddamn thermal gratient. So go ahead and cop out DJ, but that just means that the rest of us will have to carry the load you selfish whiner.

[0mar]

Protons actually do decay at something like 10^20 years or something. There's a huge underground facility in Japan that holds something like 2 million gallons of water looking for a decay of a proton.

[smiley]

The thermodynamic law is indeed statistical. The correct way to look at it is:

Every state has an equal chance of occurring. Since there are more 'disordered' states than 'ordered', a change is statistically more likely to result in a 'disordered' state than a 'ordered' one.

This means that the opposite can also happen. My house can spontaneously jump up, make a somersault and land on its foundations. However the odds of such an occurrence are infinitely small.

Entropy describes by the number of possible states or what we call complexions.

A high entropy thus means that the system can be arranged in many ways.

It is important to notice that entropy itself does not discriminate between ordered and disordered states. It is wrong to equal entropy with 'disorder'. An 'ordered' state can have exactly the same entropy as and 'disordered' state, although the latter has a larger chance of occurring.

However an important question is: what is 'disorder'? People who use thermodynamics, are hesitant to use the word disorder. The problem is is that disorder is a human qualification, a matter of perception. My girlfriend says that my room is disordered, I perceive it to be pretty ordered, thermodynamics might view it completely different.

When you start applying thermodynamics to complex things like evolution you run into two problems. One is that you cannot possible calculate the number of possible states. This is already terribly difficult for a system with more than six components, let alone a system which involves planets plants, animals etc. Therefore you cannot say that one configuration has a higher entropy than another. Secondly you cannot use your personal human definition of order to quantify the amount of disorder.

It is therefore pretty useless to try to use thermodynamics in an intuitive way to predict the fate of the human race.

[Mercani]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', '
')
It is therefore pretty useless to try to use thermodynamics in an intuitive way to predict the fate of the human race.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'I')t is important to notice that entropy itself does not discriminate between ordered and disordered states. It is wrong to equal entropy with 'disorder'.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'T')he thermodynamic law is indeed statistical. The correct way to look at it is:

Every state has an equal chance of occurring. Since there are more 'disordered' states than 'ordered', a change is statistically more likely to result in a 'disordered' state than a 'ordered' one.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The biggest flaw of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is the formation of the seed of the Big Bang. All that energy could not focus itself into a point. To do so would be the grossest violation of the 2nd Law imaginable. Ergo, the Big Bang was impossible.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')I still can't understand why anybody would believe that the 2nd Law has any relevance to Peak Oil. The Earth isn't an isolated system. The entropy on Earth can increase. Actually, if it didn't increase, it couldn't support life.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'T')he concept of Big Bang is that nothing happened before the Big Bang. All that energy didn't focus itself into a point. Rather, at the beggining of time, there was a point of focused energy. Nothing made it focus.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ecause every activity we do is governed by the 2nd law is why. How many people understand there are no free lunches? If everone understood the limits on energy constrained by 2nd Law, do you think they would still be buying the "hydrogen" economy?

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'T')he concept of Big Bang is that nothing happened before the Big Bang. All that energy didn't focus itself into a point. Rather, at the beggining of time, there was a point of focused energy. Nothing made it focus.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Just think how much longer it would have taken to really spread those ores out in a nice global meringue if we hadn't come on the scene. Humans are the best gradient reducers in history.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rove to anyone that the extensive movement of minerals and hydrocarbons from an ordered (concentrated) state to a disordered (unconcentrated) state has no effect on the future of the human race