[k_semler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', '1'). Propane powered vehicles have been around for at least the early 80s, if not longer.

[MicroHydro]

In places like Eugene, Oregon there are woodburning bans during much of the winter due to excessive woodsmoke air pollution. When I lived there I could only use the gas fireplace. There are just too many people on this planet, period.

[turtleT]

BiGG wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have a 600+ HP boat that burns a gallon per mile at ¾ throttle and drive my 6.6 liter turbo diesel pick-up to the marina on weekends unless I decide to drive my car with a 320 HP V-8. Or, I go camping in my 400 HP diesel pusher motorhome instead! Heck that’s nothing though, my friends have 500+ HP diesel pushers and boats that could carry mine hanging off their transom.

Are you suggesting I give up those and all my other toys because of a future problem? I would rather help the current economy based on consumption for the time being as a lot of jobs rely on me right now!

Educate people all you want as I do the same but that doesn’t change the fact that todays economy will not, and cannot change overnight and you can bet that I will be doing my share of the getting’ while the getting’ is good.

[JBinKC]

Well its one way to temporarily avoid paying fuel taxes. I don't think this car would ever be a mainstream item given the bigger potential natural gas crisis in North America. Could be a niche way of transportation if were acceptable for the engine to use biogas.

[BiGG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andy', 'O')n another thread with Baldwincng, I have stated that using natural gas for transportation is counterproductive. It is better to utilize natural gas at high efficiency in stationary applications than throw it away down the tailpipe of an ICE vehicle. This Civic NG car is a complete waste of time, energy and effort in my opinion.

[BiGG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turtleT', '
')


BiGG, who are you and why are you here? I hope you were kidding about the above. Cause it ain't funny.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BIGG', 'I') go camping in my 400 HP diesel pusher motorhome instead!

[dark-suzie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aahala', 'A')didas has several new personal transporation models that produce
hardly any polution and are a lot cheaper. They use no fossil fuels, aren't as fast and come in pairs.

[BiGG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', '
')
Sorry, couldn't resist.

[BiGG]

.

A Cool Overview of Honda's Hydrogen Vehicles

[boilingleadbath]

Ok, so they are high-tech toys. He's my opinion:
Screw hydrogen, use ultracapacitors. Why? Simple. For the cost of a fule cell (500,000$) you can get, at current retail costs, the equivelent of 2.2 gallons of gas in a effishent car, you well probably go 150+ miles on this. What's the range of current H-cars? Ultracaps can be filled very fast, and much more effishently (when you take discharge into account, doubly so) than F.C.s. The cost is likely to fall in the future, and as you start to make more of them (and buy bigger ones than the one I took the data from).

Not to mention than you can have a 2,000 HP car without huge 'gas' milage decreases.

[ArimoDave]

I googled ultra capacitors found this site which has data in a convenient chart on the ultra caps they carry.

Their biggest -- a 5000H capacitor (that is one huge capacitor) -- has a specific power rating of 5.24 kW/kg and a specific energy rating of 5.82 Wh/kg.

Anybody know the specific energy and power of gasoline when used in a conventional internal combustion engine.

How do these capacitors compare?

Other problems I see are:

How do you avoid electrocution when these capacitors discharge in a car wreck?
And, to charge a whole bunch of them if they are to replace gasoline and diesel
mandates a major upgrade of the electrical supply infrastructure.

ArimoDave

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ArimoDave', '
')Anybody know the specific energy and power of gasoline when used in a conventional internal combustion engine.

[ArimoDave]

13500 Wh/kg / 5.82 Wh/kg = 2320. 32% of 2320 = 742

So, it would seem that in order to go the same distance and speed (air resitance)
the capacitors would weigh 742 times as much as the fuel in the tank. The density of gasoline is about .75 kg/L.
A 45 Liter (about 12 Gal US) tank then contains fuel with a mass of 33.8 kg (74.4 lbs).

Multiply 74.4 lbs by 742 and the capacitors weigh a whopping 55,200 lbs. (25 100 kg)

(Note: three significant figures. )

Practical? -- I tend to think not.


ArimoDave

edit math error, and didn't read MQ 32% figure. Oops.

[BiGG]

.

$6,000 fuel cell motorcycle planned by 2006



"A British company that unveiled a fuel cell motorcycle earlier this year has announced that it hopes to have the zero-emission vehicles for sale by 2006 at a price of $6,000. Meeting that goal would make Intelligent Energy the first company to have a production-line fuel cell vehicle of any kind on the market................"

Read more on the link above

[Wildwell]

Just a shame nobody sells hydrogen!

Does anyone else find it suspicious talking about zero emissions vehicles? Always reminds me of 'No added flavourings and preservatives'on food packets, but ‘forgets’ to tell you about all the other nasty stuff…

200 miles between fill ups? Nearer 150 one would think, with top speed of 50mph it's another commuter vehicle.

[BiGG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'J')ust a shame nobody sells hydrogen!

[0mar]

BiGG, do you know any chemistry? Where is the hydrogen going to come from.

[shakespear1]

Look on page 4 of BIGG's report

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')echnology Issues
There are a lot of technological issues associated with the development of hydrogen infrastructure on a large scale including production, storage and distribution. Although the process of producing hydrogen in bulk is established for industrial applications, it is not always possible to link these production sites to supply automotive hydrogen. Transportation of hydrogen is associated with large cost, as hydrogen storage still remains a bottleneck of the process. In order to avoid such distribution problems H2Gen, Hydrogenics and HyRadix amongst others have come up with different solutions for distributed hydrogen generation.
H2Gen units, for example, are based on a known technology of steam methane reforming but on a much smaller scale than centralised large industrial production. These units are capable of producing 113 kg of hydrogen a day, which is equivalent

[Devil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shakespear1', '
')H2Gen units, for example, are based on a known technology of steam methane reforming but on a much smaller scale than centralised large industrial production. These units are capable of producing 113 kg of hydrogen a day, which is equivalent