[Guest]

>What do you do about the problem of "Peak Hemp?"
>Once your hemp production peaks, you are back in the same situation we are now.
>And that would happen quite fast, as we are rapidly running out of arable land.

That is an interesting question, although unlike with oil once the maximum output is reached it will stay at that point forever, not decline like fossil fuels

Hemp will grow on poor soils, anywhere you find a weed so land might not be a problem
True, it would take a lot of manual labour and machinery to process enough hemp to even begin to replace fossil fuels. Thats where I need to find out what scale we are talking about here
How much land and labour would be needed?

I will try and find a website where someone has worked this out

Martin

[Whitecrab]

Hey, every little bit helps. Anyone know more about making plastic from hemp? Can you make different kinds?

[Martin_gst1]

Forget for the moment hemp petrol (ethanol) - this still *might* replace our petrol needs (if we eliminate wastage) but its yet to be proven because it only has a marginal energy return

Hemp diesel is different - the oil from hemp seeds will work with little or no modification in a standard diesel engine. I know someone who runs their camper van on chip fat!
Check out http://www.runyourvehicleonchipfat.com

I lifted the article below from FuelandFibre.com so I can't confirm its accuracy, but lets assume for the moment they are correct

Since most lorries and tankers run on diesel this means hemp can help keep some essential transport systems running, plus any diesel car

Please can someone prove/disprove this, and also work out how much land we would need to set aside to meaningfully impact our diesel fuel prices in the short term and provide adequate biodiesel in the long term

So far hemp is the only alternative fuel source that can be brought online fairly quickly and without massive new technology

Martin

[Guest]

Forgot the article!
>
Grown for oilseed, Canadian grower's yields average 1 tonne/hectare, or about 400 lbs. per acre. Cannabis seed contains about 28% oil (112 lbs.), or about 15 gallons per acre. Production costs using these figures would be about $35 per gallon. Some varieties are reported to yield as much as 38% oil, and a record 2,000 lbs. per acre was recorded in 1999. At that rate, 760 lbs.of oil per acre would result in about 100 gallons of oil, with production costs totaling about $5.20 gallon. Sales of the remaining stalk material at $72 per ton will provide another source of income. It is estimated that a crop grown for both seed and fiber will produce about 3 tons of stalk, which is selling for about $72 per ton, resulting in a $216 per acre credit. This will reduce the cost of the oil to about $3 per gallon. Further reductions will accrue as the agronomic knowledge base is enlarged, and economies of scale are realized, lowering production costs while improving yields.

This oil could be used as-is in modified diesel engines, or be converted to biodiesel using a relatively simple, automated process. Several systems are under development worldwide designed to produce biodiesel on a small scale, such as on farms using "homegrown" oil crops.

[MrPC]

Why is it that whenever the h word is raised, people like me automatically roll their eyes and think "it'll probably waffle on about something that's too good to be true, so it's not worth reading"?

[Guest]

People who dismiss hemp make the same mistake as those people who dismiss peak oil, they are one

They simply assume they are right without even bothering to find out

Yes there are some over inflated claims about hemp, but that doesn't mean it can't help us when peak oil hits

I will be posting a LOT more about hemp so you better start coming up with proper criticisms!

Prove to me that I'm wrong, I challange you!

Martin

[Cool Hand Linc]

Prove to me that you’re right! Make sure you calculate the required number of acres to provide fuel for a nation of consumers. Until you prove that the idea will work. There is no need to prove it will not.

Understand this too. Showing that it is possible to run a single vehicle off hemp oils or peanut oils or waste oils from deep fryers is different than showing an entire economy or even a good part of an economy can be run off it.

Until you crunch the numbers to FULLY back up your idea. You haven't proved it.

Link

[Pops]

Perhaps you could start proving your point by providing some reviewed research article links to back up your figures.

List the modern strains and their required inputs.

Maybe compare hemp to other sources of seed oil considering the huge amount of union (read prison guards) and political will arrayed against.

Tell about the variety of uses hemp was put to in the past

Probably make an argument regarding how you would convince politicians to take up your cause (possibly hardest of all).

A solution, it seems to me, is only as good as it’s chances of success.

[Skeptic_gst1]

Having read you posts. I just thought I'd point out that you don't seem to have included the costs of growing the hemp in the first place or any other of the associated costs.

I have read that 95% of current furtilisers utilise oil in their production. Intensive farming methods make them essential to maintain crop yields. Then there is the physical energy cost associated with intensive agro production; the ploughing, sowing, spraying with pesticides and harvesting. Lastly is the energy cost of extracting the oil and transporting it to the pumps.

I have read that for other domesticated cereal crops the calorie ratio is something like 10:1. For every food calorie producted it took ten petro calories to produce. (The ratio is worse for animal production) I seriously dought that hemp can reverse that ratio, never mind the area of land that would need to be set aside for this.

See the link below for the best explanation I've read about agricultural energy production and oil comsumption.

The oil we eat: following the food chain back to Iraq

[The_Virginian]

Hemp is supposed to be pretty light on fertilizer and pesticide use.

The day Monsato patents a 0% (vs. almost zero) THC hemp, and gives it a new name like "Patriot Bio-Weed"...that will be the day industrial hemp will be legalized.

[Guest]

Thats more like it!
Thanks guys
You see, I'm still trying to work out exactly how much hemp could help us myself and need the criticisms to do this!

>Prove to me that you're right! Make sure you calculate the required number of acres to provide fuel for a nation of consumers. Until you prove that the idea will work. There is no need to prove it will not.
>Understand this too. Showing that it is possible to run a single vehicle off hemp oils or peanut oils or waste oils from deep fryers is different than showing an entire economy or even a good part of an economy can be run off it.
>Until you crunch the numbers to FULLY back up your idea. You haven't proved it.

This is what I hope to do, but it could take some time, as yet I haven't found anywhere on the net you can get a condensed authenticated overview of what biomass (hemp) could provide


>Perhaps you could start proving your point by providing some reviewed research article links to back up your figures. List the modern strains and their required inputs. Maybe compare hemp to other sources of seed oil considering the huge amount of union (read prison guards) and political will arrayed against.

I will try and build up a list of links and put them on my website
As far as I can tell hemp is the best all round biomass plant
Its fast growing, isn't too fussy about soil or weather, doesn't need drowing in pestisides or herbicides
The political will against it you mentioned is only true in the US, in Europe there is a small but growing (and legal!) industrial hemp industry

>Tell about the variety of uses hemp was put to in the past
Paper, food, clothing, oil for lamps (hemp used to be the main lighting oil till the 1800's)


> Having read you posts. I just thought I'd point out that you don't seem to have included the costs of growing the hemp in the first place or any other of the associated costs.

True, that needs to be worked out
But as far as I can tell the market is there, and hemp is no different from growing any other crop
I'm not sure growing costs are that important, processing costs and energy return on investment is the key question


>I have read that 95% of current furtilisers utilise oil in their production. Intensive farming methods make them essential to maintain crop yields. Then there is the physical energy cost associated with intensive agro production; the ploughing, sowing, spraying with pesticides and harvesting. Lastly is the energy cost of extracting the oil and transporting it to the pumps.

I have also heard about the oil in fertilisers, I'm not sure if this includes both pesticides (pest control) and herbisides (fertiliser)
What I do know about hemp is that its a hardy plant, unlike for example Cotton
It doesn't really need pesticides but it does need fertiliser

What I will try and do is contrast pest/herb requirements for hemp, then cotton and corn

>I have read that for other domesticated cereal crops the calorie ratio is something like 10:1. For every food calorie producted it took ten petro calories to produce. (The ratio is worse for animal production) I seriously dought that hemp can reverse that ratio, never mind the area of land that would need to be set aside for this.

Thats the key question!
Is biomass (hemp) an energy sink, by default the answer is a definite no
We could grow it and harvest it the old way using manual labour
Of course this would only support small, local populations (the die off scenario)

The question is, is hemp enough of an energy source to inject a little bit of mechanisation/raw materials and still keep it an energy source?
If so, we can farm it on a big scale and get food, materials and fuel from it without consuming fossil fuels

Thats the million dollar question and determines everything about how useful hemp could be
Its what I'm trying to find out!
Shouldn't everyone?

Martin

[MattSavinar]

So what happens when we hit "Peak Hemp"?

Seriously,its the same problem we have now - the peaking and declining of a fuel source.

In this case, the amount of hemp we would be able to produce would be limited by arable land or any number of factors.

Not that it couldn't help soften the fall . . . but I think hemp has more value as a food crop than as use for fuel. It is extremely nutritionally dense, relatively easy to grow, very hearty crop. Ideal for a situation in which food production is declining.

BTW, I just had some hemp oil with my tuna sandwich. (Buy it at the health food store)

Matt

www.lifeafterthehempcrash.net

[Cynic]

15 gallons per acre. Great.

Plus all the work required growing the hemp and producing the oil.

Also, 15 gallons per acre per what? per year? per 6 months?

Hemp-growing ideas usually come from naive hippies who smoke too much of it.

[Terran]

The hemp plant have less cellulose than other plants, less carbohydrates means lower alochol yields. Your better off to ferment other plants. Hemp oil made from seeds shouldn't be used as a fuel, it should be comsumed as a food diet. Hemp is better off as a food crop, I heard that even after 20 years of growing hemp on a plot of land, there are no signs of the soil nutrients being exhausted.

[Pops]

Hemp was grown traditionally as a fiber source, much like flax.

It has gained a new popularity due to the ancillary uses.

[Guest]

done some more research since the first post
'twas a little optimistic I admit!

Hemp oil could never be used to maintain our current economic system
But in a less energy intensive world it could keep basic things running

I worked out if you grew it in the UK on a large, but not massive scale you could get a million barrels or two - per year!
In the US maybe you could make that one hunder
Thats around 1/70th the oil America uses a year

But remember we turn a lot of oil into plastic and other things
The rest of the hemp plant can be used to make plastic from the cellulose, as well as fabric and paper
With conservation hemp oil could in theory run a simpler, less wasteful economy

Or being less ambitious....
Its possible we could run our farms on locally grown hemp, so we in effect get free farming
The farmer then sells his food as well as the rest of the hemp plant for production

Any farmers here?
If so I will dig out the figures and see how large a field would be needed to be set aside for hemp!

Regards,
Martin

[rowante]

There is no THC in industrial hemp.

http://www.hempmarket.com.au/hemp_thc_content.htm

So no need for Monsanto.

[Guest]

Just found the data

From one acre of land you should be able to get 50 gallons of oil
Its a simple crushing process to extract the oil from the seeds

The oil can then be put straight into any diesel engine
Making petrol from hemp is possible but much more difficult

I have no idea how much diesel the average farm uses, is 50 gallons an acre enough to run a farm?

PS Theoretically it should be possible to get 100 gallons an acre, 50 is a more realistic figure for the moment
PPS Other seed crops have higher oil content, but hemp also produces useful fibres and cellulose for manufacturing and is generally pest resistant
PPPS A rule of thumb is that any field that can grow corn can grow hemp

Martin

[Guest]

Reply to a now-non existent post!!!
Some technical stuff on hemp and oil seed crops in general

>Whether or not it turns out to be feasible as a major energy source, it seems reasonable that oil could be a useful byproduct of a fiber-producing operation. So then the relevant question is, given a reasonable expectation of hemp production for fiber, what quantity of oil can be expected as a byproduct of this?

From article I found:
In some countries hemp is grown as a dual-purpose crop which is harvested for both seed and fiber when seeds are near maturity. In France, hemp seed is directly combined around the 15th of September using a combine set to cut 1.5 meters (5 feet) above ground level. The combine cuts the upper stems and threshes the seed in the field. The remaining crop is cut using a mower-conditioner and baled after field drying. Seed yields using this system range from 600 to 1000 kg/ha (536 to 893 pounds/acre) (Van der Werf, 1992).

Maximum expected seed yield from dual-purpose is 1000 kg/ha (893 pounds/acre), and dry hemp stalk yield is typically 4.5-6.7 tonnes/ha (2-3 tons/acre) (Bocsa and Karus, 1998).


>Then also, consider the potential value of the hemp oil for food uses, which may be more important depending on its nutritional qualities.

Hemp oil is the most nutrious of the seed crops
There is a certain attraction to the concept of using the same oil for food and fuel!


>Then also, consider canola oil as another source of biodiesel: if canola is a substantially more efficient fuel crop, and substantially worse from a nutritional standpoint, then it stands to reason that canola oil would be used for fuel and hemp oil as a food product.

I think this is very possible, both sunflower & canola produce a fair bit more oil
Unless breeding improves seed yield hemp would only be used for fuel in combination with the use of its fibres

It might turn out that hemp while not being the best oil seed crop happens to be the best all round plant for food, fibre, cellulose and oil (for food or fuel). Its largely pest resistant, somewhat self fertilising and good on the soil

Once peak oil becomes an issue in Europe at least the experts will take a serious look at hemp

What we need round here in an agricultural specialist who can tell us the real deal on the 'weed'


On a lighter note (or maybe that should be 'higher' note!)
Perhaps we could learn from the marijuana growers, they have become quite adept at growing and breeding
Why not grow crops hydroponically, it doesn't make sense to water a whole field when we only need to water the root system



Martin

[Devil]

Dual-purpose hemp is inefficient on both counts (seed and fibre). In most countries, as I explained in a prior post which, hopefully, may come back, hemp grown for fibre is densely sown while that grown for seed is sparsely sown. The former gives long straight stems with retted fibres up to or even more than 2 m long, harvested before the seed is formed. The latter permits branching with multiple flower heads on shorter stems and a much higher yield of seed, which is oil-richer, as less energy is directed to the high plant-growth.

Hemp oil is rarely used for human consumption. Like linseed oil and other drying oils, it has an unpleasant flavour. It is mostly used as a drying oil in varnishes and paints and in avine fodder.

Canola oil is an impure form of colza or rapeseed oil. Purified, it is much used industrially and domestically for human consumption and gives much higher yields/hectare than hemp, especially as, being a spring crop, something else can be grown after the harvest. The big disadvantage is that it is not wise to grow colza or other brassicae on the same ground in under three years because of root nematodes. Colza requires much less water than hemp, which is important in most parts of the world.